Darth Caedus VS. Yoda

Started by Jinsoku Takai3 pages
Originally posted by Arhael
That's not interpretation that's what text says. Yoda caused him to almost fall from platform and Sidious dropped lightsaber as result. That wouldn't happen, if it was on even ground.

Really man? First of all, you said this:

Sidious dropped lightsaber himself to prevent falling from platform

NOWHERE does it say that Sidious dropped his lightsaber in order to NOT fall over the edge. Quit interjecting your flawed interpretation into the text. Also, the simple fact that Yoda nearly caused Sidious to go over the edge indicates that he is the superior duelist.

Well, to be fair, people do tend to reflexively drop shit when threatened with a terminal vertical experience.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Really man? First of all, you said this:

NOWHERE does it say that Sidious dropped his lightsaber in order to NOT fall over the edge. Quit interjecting your flawed interpretation into the text.


I merely pointed out at the circumstances of the fight and drew conclusion from that. If it qualifies for interpretation, it doesn't change anything. All text specifies is that Yoda cause Sidious to almost fall, it doesn't say that Yoda disarmed him, only that Sidious dropped it. If Yoda disarmed him with his superior skill, text would specify it.

Characters were shown to drop lightsaber as result of being kicked but such assumption doesn't work with Yoda. So falling from platform is the only possible reason.

Also, the simple fact that Yoda nearly caused Sidious to go over the edge indicates that he is the superior duelist.

Wrong. In fight it is common for one character to press advantage at some point and it can go either way depending on circumstances.

At first it was Sidious pressing advantage by killing three Masters and then driving Windu back. Then as Windu breaks window Sidious partially redirects his effort and Windu gains advantage.

At one point Anakin drops lightsiber(or gets disarmed), grabs Kenobi and chokes him as well as nearly kills him with his own lightsaber, then kicks him so hard that Kenobi drops lightsaber as well. In next instant Anakin gets kick in the face and is on his shoulder blades, while Kenobi is above him again with lightsaber. Both ended up being without lightsaber at some point and both were gaining advantage at some point, yet, their skill is equal, neither is superior.

Vader, when fighting Marek, nearly overwhelmed him at one point and Marek used lightning to stand and catch some breath:
"The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain.
...
Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.
"

Yet, after that Marek scored several lightsaber hits as well.

As you see advantage switches from one to another time to time. The fact that Yoda at some point managed to drive Sidious back is simply not enough to conclude that he is superior, especially, when in film during saber fight they were even. And even, if both characters are even, inevitably one will get disarmed depending on circumstances. It happened to be Sidious in that case.

I see Arhael's point. Sidious was driving Mace back for a good portion of the fight. If that was on a small platform, then chances are Mace would have been overwhelmed.

Same for Anakin vs Obi-Wan.

Environment and circumstances makes a big difference in SW fights. As do the different talents of each individual combatant. Same as real life really.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace was driving Sidious back for a good portion of the fight. If that was on a small platform, then chances are Sidious would have been overwhelmed.

Fixed. 馃槢

The irony is, aside from Mace noticeably driving Sidious back through most of the fight, when the fight got out to the platform, Sidious was overwhelmed, as Mace had him edged out in speed, there.

Originally posted by Arhael
Let's recap her feats.

Just 1 year prior to DE Luke fought C'baot and even got overpowered by him, while Mara resisted his combined lightning and TK.

She fought Lord Nyax together with Luke and Tahiri. His strength was such that he could knock Vong off feet with one swing and was driving Luke back. His speed was such that he blitzed Voxin, while for Jedi strike team killing them was a "routine work". His Force power was such that he nearly mind dominated all three and demonstrated far superior TK. And Mara performed as good as Luke against him.

Mara defeated Lumya without use of shoto. Luke was able to do the same only because of desire to avenge Mara.

As you see there are plenty of evidence proving that Mara's combat capabilities are close to Luke. Luke himself had opinion that Mara would kick Jacen's ass.

Hah! Are you implying that Luke's performance was hampered? All evidence suggests opposite.

Luke was angry in that fight. Should I remind you how angry Luke outskilled Vader? Or how anger empowers Force users in general and makes them much more dangerous combatats?

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been. - Luke took early advantage of his sneak attack and nearly killed Jacen right at the begining. How many characters would be able to sustain elbow to the temple? Add the knee smash into chin followed by lightsaber strike into chest and it becomes miraculous that Jacen survived at all.

Jacen barely recovered from previous attack and Luke does another lethal combo:
Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-

Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. - do you ever remember Luke trying to overpower someone with strength? Fight against Vader is perhaps the only example.

And yet another dirty trick from Luke:
"His blade met Jacen's in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen's eyes.

Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head."

And another one:
"He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter."

Never in his life Luke fought so lethally. Never in his life he employed so many dirty tricks. Mara because of Ben almost killed Jacen. Luke fought for exactly the same reason, Ben's life depended on him. The assumption that he didn't fight at his best is simply unsupported.

So how exactly do you imagine Yoda beating Jacen? Luke did it through unarmed combat techniques, which he normally doesn't employ at all and still fight ended in stalemate. Yoda can't do same things cos of his physical limitations. Through pure saber skill? Yoda was unable to defeat Dooku on even ground. Sidious dropped lightsaber himself to prevent falling from platform, on even ground there is no way Sidious would get disarmed by Yoda. Luke is superior to both Dooku and Sidious and Caedus still badly battered him. That's sufficient enough to be above likes of Yoda and Windu. [/QUOTE]

Yet it has been argued by others on here that Anakin's anger didn't make im stonger against Kenobi... Yet you seem to but supporting such a notion.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Yet it has been argued by others on here that Anakin's anger didn't make im stonger against Kenobi... Yet you seem to but supporting such a notion.

He's always supported that notion. I'm coming around to that idea as well. The official site states Anakin felt his power grow as he embraced the dark side.

Kenobi obviously just had the right skill set to deal with Skywalker. But I still think Anakin is the most powerful out of the Dooku, Kenobi and Skywalker trio 馃槢

Originally posted by Visage
The irony is, aside from Mace noticeably driving Sidious back through most of the fight, when the fight got out to the platform, Sidious was overwhelmed, as Mace had him edged out in speed, there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_XLDlDWLQ

From 0:10 - 0:30 Palpatine is doing the overpowering. That's 20 seconds.

From 0:40 - 0:45 Mace is doing the overpowering. That's 5 seconds.

At 0:55 Mace is the one who actually comes out on top. Which according to the novel was due to Sidious slowing down near the window ledge. The rest of the fight they looked pretty even.

And all this despite the fact that Sidious had to spend the first few seconds of the fight concentrating on taking out the other Jedi.

Clearly context of how a fight starts and environment in which a fight takes place means a lot in SW.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's always supported that notion. I'm coming around to that idea as well. The official site states Anakin felt his power grow as he embraced the dark side.

Kenobi obviously just had the right skill set to deal with Skywalker. But I still think Anakin is the most powerful out of the Dooku, Kenobi and Skywalker trio 馃槢

Why weren't you coming around to that idea when Big Daddy KuRupt was going back and forth with you saying it's true? Oh yeah... you're right Kenobi is the better combatant with the better feats 馃槢

Yet it has been argued by others on here that Anakin's anger didn't make im stonger against Kenobi... Yet you seem to but supporting such a notion.

Those arguments didn't have any basis, mere lowballing. Anakin did get stronger and there is direct proves for that both in film and novel. In film he demonstrated superior strength by choking Kenobi and driving his hand with lightsaber towards his face. In novel Anakin, also, demonstrated superior strength:
"His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad"

Overpowering Kenobi in stength is even more impressive considering that Opress and Maul couldn't do it combined.

Performance wise Anakin, also, showed himself better than ever. He nearly killed Kenobi with grappling, kicked him twice, second kick even disarmed Kenobi.

In general Anakin alone gave Kenobi much harder time than brothers. Brothers couldn't land a single hit on him.

Moreover, compare visual performance. Anakin attacked Kenobi literally twice faster than Dooku. This fight demonstrates the highest technical level in film.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why weren't you coming around to that idea when Big Daddy KuRupt was going back and forth with you saying it's true?

If you see my arguments at the start of that thread and compare them to what I was saying towards the end you'll see I changed my tune a lot.

Anyway the direct quotes from the official site on the matter are this:

Tapping into the dark side, Anakin found his powers increasing.

and this:

Sidious envisions a galaxy of order and peace, but first, the Jedi must be eliminated. He tasks Vader to do the dark deed, for only then will Vader be so powered by the dark side as to be unstoppable.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Oh yeah... you're right Kenobi is the better combatant with the better feats 馃槢

Nah out of the trio A>B>C>A trio of Dooku, Kenobi and Skywalker, I'd put Sith Anakin on top.

Simply because he can certainly take some wins against Kenobi.

Whilst Kenobi taking any wins against Dooku is almost impossible.

And Dooku taking wins against Sith Anakin is also pretty unlikely considering his dread at what would happen if Skywalker gave into his full rage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_XLDlDWLQ

From 0:10 - 0:30 Palpatine is doing the overpowering. That's 20 seconds.

From 0:40 - 0:45 Mace is doing the overpowering. That's 5 seconds.


Overpowering? No. Sidious wasn't overpowering anyone.

Overpowering, would mean outdoing someone in a contest of strength/saber-lock.

At that point, Sidious is overwhelming - but not "overpowering" anyone.

The only person doing any physical-overpowering was Mace.

And - when we go from 30 to all the way to 60 Mace Windu is doing both the only actual overpowering and the overwhelming.

- So that's 30 seconds - 10 seconds longer than Sidious, and he beat Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

At 0:55 Mace is the one who actually comes out on top. Which according to the novel was due to Sidious slowing down near the window ledge. The rest of the fight they looked pretty even.

At 0:55 Mace of course is the one who comes out on top, due to superior speed and skill.

And according to the novel, when they both got out onto the ledge and fought, they both had to slow down their footwork to compensate for the slippery surface.

And there, Mace had could deliver faster cuts and strikes than Sidious, who was slower than Mace.

In the novel, Mace's hands/strikes are faster than Sidious - in the movie, it's also his feet, which is impressive because in real-life swordsmanship, you are cautioned not to throw kicks in a duel, because that is, in reality, a good way to lose a leg.

The fact that Mace can execute a smooth and powerful kick in a place where his footwork should be dramatically-slowed is evidence of great speed and physicality on his part.

Not to mention the fact that in said novel, Mace's speed was 24-swings per second - and the version of Luke that defeated the most powerful version of Sidious later on, had a top speed of only 20-swings per second. (Luke Skywalker during New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force.)

Which means Mace is faster, Period.

And the novel and movie both make it clear that prior to the ledge, Sidious was being driven back, and wasn't capable of striking Mace a single time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And all this despite the fact that Sidious had to spend the first few seconds of the fight concentrating on taking out the other Jedi.
Clearly context of how a fight starts and environment in which a fight takes place means a lot in SW.

He was able to surprise some Force-gimped Masters, and Mace and Fisto had to be careful that they didn't accidentally bisect one another in the foray.

But once Fisto was done - Mace knew he had all the opportunity and room to sink into Vapaad fully and take Sidious down, which he did.