Orson Scott Card - Scifi writer & Anti-Gay Militant

Started by bluewaterrider6 pages

Originally posted by Q99

whenever one group is disadvantaged or discriminated against, changing it so that they're not is ... an action that decreases the quantity of discrimination and makes things more equal. Seems pretty opposite to me.

Plessy versus Ferguson was what immediately came to mind when you wrote this; an instance where arguably MORE discrimination resulted (i.e. the nominally separate but equal Jim Crow laws) but perhaps it's time to begin steering this conversation away from race, for that actually confuses this discussion instead of clarifying it.

Let's go with a more recent but practical and generic example of discrimination being (arguably) intensified by well-meaning legislation and judicial activism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsIpQ7YguGE

The following is arguably the most balanced perspective anyone's likely to come across. Definitely should be seen, even though a good number are guaranteed to misintrepret it ...

(Andrew Klavan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KY9bpTeXDc

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The following is arguably the most balanced perspective anyone's likely to come across. Definitely should be seen, even though a good number are guaranteed to misintrepret it ...

(Andrew Klavan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KY9bpTeXDc

That man is disgusting.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I know of no case where Chik-Fil-A has discriminated against any customer or employee and challenge you to present evidence that they do. That's precisely why I mentioned them as a target extremists tend to go for earlier in this thread.

If you think the entire Chik-Fil-A franchise should be boycotted because Dan Cathy said he believes in traditional marriage, if you take THAT kind of information and think it should lead to activist protest, what do you have to say about something like the following?


Chik-Fil-A actively supported anti-LGBT causes with their money. Each chicken sandwich you bought, delicious as it was, helped them do that.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[b]Marriage is Not a Right
[/B]

The Supreme Court has actually ruled marriage a right, several times in the past.

"Marriage is one of the basic civil rights of man." - Chief Justice Earl Warren. (Loving v. Virginia)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Plessy versus Ferguson was what immediately came to mind when you wrote this; an instance where arguably MORE discrimination resulted (i.e. the nominally separate but equal Jim Crow laws)

That, btw, is why people are arguing for gay marriage and not just gay civil union.

Separate but equal isn't. On the other hand, simply putting more people under an existing right actually helps.

There's pretty much zero reason to believe this will cause any discrimination problems.

Originally posted by Q99

(Ex-gay conversion therapy is also known as 'traumatizing gay people to no effect and is considered harmful and ineffective by all the major psychological organizations'.)

The language being used in this thread is fascinating, if alarming.
It's like being in a seminar on how to use propaganda.

A group started by Focus on the Family (Family Research Council) is suddenly a "hate" group?

Really?

What exactly have they done that shows hate toward any person, let alone any numberless group of people?

Style, all you've told me, ultimately, is that this group supported a voting drive to say exactly what your President said, at least up until last year, when he was up for re-election:
Marriage is between a man and a woman.
How does affirming that, recognized from the earliest history of this country as the norm and basis of society, suddenly become "anti" anything?

I looked up several of the things you and Q99 mentioned.

Looking up "Chik-Fil-A controversy" revealed that financial support to the "hate group" was, again, a $1000 contribution to the Family Research Council.

Looking up some of those other names revealed that most of these groups are, like FRC, not hate groups at all, but religious organizations encouraging their members to be active voters.

I can understand why voting drives concerning anything are perceived as a threat to people with special interests, but it's really got little to do with actual people receiving unfair or unjust treatment.

I was especially given pause, however, when "ex-gay" gave me the following on an apparently well-known publisher. The part from 2 or 3 minutes to the 5 minute 20 second mark is the section most relevant to highlighting how gradually changing perceptions through use/misuse of language advances an agenda.

I really want to hear your opinion on this section, whether you think the woman is lying, and, if so, exactly why you think so, and what she would have to gain from it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQGA-n4JyOY

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Style, all you've told me, ultimately, is that this group supported a voting drive to say exactly what your President said, at least up until last year, when he was up for re-election:
Marriage is between a man and a woman.

How does affirming that, recognized from the earliest history of this country as the [b]norm and basis of society, suddenly become "anti" anything? [/B]


They've donated to more than a voting drive, although that would be enough to boycott them if you wanted to. You keep saying "your" President, as if that changes anything. I already stated that I disagreed with his past view.

"It's tradition" is generally a terrible argument. Must I explain why the "norm" can be discriminatory? Do you realize how many screwed up practices used to be the "norm?"

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Looking up some of those other names revealed that most of these groups are, like FRC, not hate groups at all, but religious organizations encouraging their members to be active voters.

I can understand why voting drives concerning anything are perceived as a threat to people with special interests, but it's really got little to do with actual people receiving unfair or unjust treatment.


If these organizations encourage voters to vote against LGBT rights, they are anti-LGBT.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I really want to hear your opinion on this section, whether you think the woman is lying, and, if so, exactly why you think so, [b]and what she would have to gain from it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQGA-n4JyOY [/B]

I watched from 2:00 to 5:00, and uh.....I'm really not sure what she's trying say.

Gay people run the media?

Re: Orson Scott Card - Scifi writer & Anti-Gay Militant

Originally posted by roughrider
Who here can separate this issue from reading his work?

I have no problem with it. I just won't spend my money and support him that way cos he's an intolerant assclown.

Like Roman Polanski. Great director, but disgusting human being, so I illegally download his films.


The language being used in this thread is fascinating, if alarming.
It's like being in a seminar on how to use propaganda.

A group started by Focus on the Family (Family Research Council) is suddenly a "hate" group?

Really?

Yes, really. Like, it's not us calling it that, it has been officially labeled as such by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a major non-profit civil rights organization.


What exactly have they done that shows hate toward any person, let alone any numberless group of people?

Well, they openly support laws that discriminate against homosexuality, called for more such laws, and they support 'ex-gay therapy,' i.e. traumatizing people for a cause that doesn't work that's lead to many suicides.

From Wikipedia, 'In February 2010, the Family Research Council's Senior Researcher for Policy Studies, Peter Sprigg, stated on NBC's Hardball that gay behavior should be outlawed and that "criminal sanctions against homosexual behavior" should be enforced'

They also accuse homosexuals of being a danger to children, that letting them into the military will lead to molestation of soldiers, and that sort of stuff.

Are you just assuming they're not a hate group because they have family in the name or something? Because they're a pretty despicable organization who openly slanders gay people, attacks them legally, and encourages harmful practices involving them.


I looked up several of the things you and Q99 mentioned.

Looking up "Chik-Fil-A controversy" revealed that financial support to the "hate group" was, again, a $1000 contribution to the Family Research Council.

Yes, like I said they seem to have perhaps caught themselves on that one.

They had also supported numerous other anti-LGBT groups, though, to the tune of millions, so there's still plenty of other reasons- and as I noted they severed ties to those. The others didn't reach the level to be classified as hate groups but they were still discriminatory against LGBT individuals via opposing their rights.


I was especially given pause, however, when "ex-gay" gave me the following on an apparently well-known publisher. The part from 2 or 3 minutes to the 5 minute 20 second mark is the section most relevant to highlighting how gradually changing perceptions through use/misuse of language advances an agenda.

No, this is not something about 'misuse of language,' or 'change of perception' through anything other than bringing the situation to light, and perhaps you should look for less biased sources than an active ex-gay activist?

This is something that psychological health organizations say is harmful.

"In 2012, the Pan American Health Organization (the North and South American branch of the World Health Organization) released a statement cautioning against services that purport to "cure" people with non-heterosexual sexual orientations as they lack medical justification and represent a serious threat to the health and well-being of affected people, and noted that the global scientific and professional consensus is that homosexuality is a normal and natural variation of human sexuality and cannot be regarded as a pathological condition."

"Mainstream health organizations critical of conversion therapy include the American Medical Association,
American Psychiatric Association,
the American Psychological Association,
the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy,
the American Counseling Association,
the National Association of Social Workers,
the American Academy of Pediatrics,
the National Association of School Psychologists,
and the American Academy of Physician Assistants."

Non-partisan, non-LGBT mental health organizations. All of them view this as a harmful practice with no legitimate benefits. Which is... pretty much all of the mental health organizations.

I do believe I'll take the word of established civil rights organizations and pretty much every mental health organization over that of a few ex-gay activists.

Re: Re: Orson Scott Card - Scifi writer & Anti-Gay Militant

Originally posted by Robtard
I have no problem with it. I just won't spend my money and support him that way cos he's an intolerant assclown.

Like Roman Polanski. Great director, but disgusting human being, so I illegally download his films.

The Polanski scandal is a dead issue. His young female 'victim' forgave him decades ago, and neither she nor her family want to see him prosecuted anymore. They had a plea deal worked out in the 1970's, only for the judge to arbitrarily throw it out and force Roman to escape the country. The only party still burning to put him in jail is the California legal system. To me, if the victim forgives and wants to let the whole thing go, it should be over.

Re: Re: Re: Orson Scott Card - Scifi writer & Anti-Gay Militant

Originally posted by roughrider
The Polanski scandal is a dead issue. His young female 'victim' forgave him decades ago, and neither she nor her family want to see him prosecuted anymore. They had a plea deal worked out in the 1970's, only for the judge to arbitrarily throw it out and force Roman to escape the country. The only party still burning to put him in jail is the California legal system. To me, if the victim forgives and wants to let the whole thing go, it should be over.

I disagree(US laws do too). His actions still make him a scumbag human being and bound to the legal issues regardless if the victim found it in her heart years later to forgive his actions. And she most definitely was a victim(being drugged and sodomized against your will is a crime, this is besides her being 13 at the time), so not sure why you captured it like she wasn't really a victim. "Force" him to flee? LoL. He didn't want to spend time in jail, so he split, that's another crime in of itself.

But the point is, I can separate his scumbag nature from his art/work. I just won't support him with my money. Like Card.

I agree with Robtard.

And putting 'victim' in quotes implies that she wasn't actually a victim, which she clearly was.

Guys, this thread isn't about gay rights or gay marriage; this is about your opinion of Orson Scott Card. Can we please keep it to that?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, this thread isn't about gay rights or gay marriage; this is about your opinion of Orson Scott Card. Can we please keep it to that?

Pr, you are right to call for a return to topic when people have veered so far the name Roman Polanski is not only cropping up but supplanting the main topic.

You are not, however, on such solid ground by asking that this thread avoid any mention of gay rights or gay marriage.
That issue, and especially how it interplays with religion in America, is precisely what people are BASING their opinion of Orson Scott Card ON.
If there's no issue with gay rights or gay marriage, there's no reason for anyone to have a problem with Orson Card, he is just another writer.

On the other hand, Orson Card isn't getting, and did not develop his views, in any vacuum. By and large he is not being treated fairly; he is being judged for statements made over 20 years ago, when America itself was a vastly different place.

The original poster asked if people can separate the writer from his work. As the thread is showing, some cannot. For Q99 and Style, the fact that Card made what is, in their minds, a transgression 20 years ago, is ample justification for boycotting him now, depriving Scott Card of work. The man who wrote the article in the link himself speaks against this, warning that people are going to the extreme of showing Card discrimination in turn.

All this despite that very few people have actually read what Scott Card wrote, let alone in its proper context.

Even in the purely secular world, there are people that hold to Card's view that marriage is between a man and a woman.
Thomas Sowell, well-known economist, is one of these.

So were, and perhaps still are, the voters of California.

So too the voters of at least 30 other states.

Card is not alone, and that's just looking at mainstream America, which votes quite a bit differently than the way polls often suggest they will on this issue; to note the surprise of those who witnessed Proposition 8's outcome.

And, again, that is the secular world.
Which Orson Scott Card, being Mormon, is not fully part of.

Card cannot be properly understood or represented fairly in a non-religious context. It'd be like talking of Martin Luther King, Jr, and not understanding that King was a Christian, or Malcolm X and not understanding that Malcolm was a Muslim and what being Muslim meant to Malcolm.

In point of fact, it is the Mormon church itself that is pro-marriage, pro-traditional marriage and decidedly against anything that violates that. Charges of polygamy do not withstand this basic fact; the Mormon church teaches its followers that marriage is between a man and a woman, something the posters in this thread do not truly seem to understand. It would not be possible for Card to be a part of the Mormon community, which is noted for being quite activist, and truly hold the views the Mormon Books and leadership teach, and be anything other than a supporter of traditional marriage.

That point needs to be made, perhaps until people understand it; and it also needs to be pointed out that Card's activism is scarcely more extraordinary than that which ANY member of the Mormon Community is encouraged to display; whether individual Mormons do or not.

Discussion of such matters as these is hardly off-topic.

I disagree. You're supposed to be discussing whether you think he can separate his views from his work, not the larger scope of his views themselves.

This a comic book forum, and is for comic book related topics. Topics like gay marriage and gay rights (two things that I personally believe in, in terms of giving gay people the same rights as straight people), are still not related to the spirit of this topic except in a secondary way, and shouldn't be discussed as such.

I think it would be better if the discussion was kept to how people think his views might interact with and influence his work, rather than his views themselves.

Originally posted by -Pr-

this thread ... is about your opinion of Orson Scott Card ...

My opinion is that Orson Scott Card is largely a product of his environment, largely unremarkable given what he has been taught is morally right, scarcely different in any way from the average activist Mormon, perfectly capable of producing work well within the norm for DC comic writers, and, lastly, should be given the chance to write the story he wants to write for Superman without unfair judgement.

Here are some basic precepts of the Mormon community as relates to homosexuality. I welcome people to show me how Scott Card's 1990 article or even any of his other behaviors, in any wise violate or fail to reflect what you see below.

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Main article: Sexuality and Mormonism

The law of chastity as taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) states that any sexual relations outside of opposite-sex marriage are contrary to God's plan for His children.[1][non-primary source needed] Included within the principles of the law of chastity is the avoidance of homosexual behavior. Violating the law of chastity may result in church discipline. Members of the church who self-identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual may remain in good standing in the church if they abstain from all homosexual relations and from heterosexual relations outside of opposite-sex marriage.[2][3] Although no one is forbidden from attending LDS Church Sunday worship services,[4] acquiring and maintaining membership in the church, and receiving a temple recommend, is dependent upon the personal observance of its teachings, including the law of chastity.[5][6][non-primary source needed]

The LDS Church historically taught that the practice of homosexuality, meaning sexual behavior with someone of the same sex,[7] was a choice or a curable mental illness.[8] Recent leadership has indicated that it may not be a conscious choice and that it may be treatable.[9] The church teaches that regardless of the cause of same sex attraction, one can and must avoid all immoral relationships, including homosexual relations.[2][10]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Thanks for clarifying your stance.

Where I come from, one of the things classified as "immoral" is premarital sex, and lord knows If that was true, then I'd be as immoral as they come. Seems the Mormons would think I was pretty immoral too.

In all seriousness, though, why is the Mormon thing being brought up? Is Card a Mormon? Was he a Mormon? Forgive my ignorance, I'm somewhat on the outside in all of this.

bluewaterrider, you've unfortunately missed an awful lot of what I, and others, are saying.

Pr has already made his ruling though, so I'll leave it alone.

I think there is a gay marriage thread in the GDF. Might copy and paste the discussion over there.

Originally posted by -Pr-

why is the Mormon thing being brought up? Is Card a Mormon? Was he a Mormon? Forgive my ignorance, I'm somewhat on the outside in all of this.

It's quite alright. In answer to your question, Card is absolutely a Mormon, and it's precisely WHY he wrote the 1990 article people keep mentioning but that few have read.

Here, from Wikipedia, most important points (at least in my estimation) bolded:

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Religion

Card's immersion in the LDS faith has been an important facet of his life from early on. His great-great-grandfather was Brigham Young, an important leader in the Latter Day Saint movement, and all of Card's ancestors from at least three generations have been members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). His ancestors include several other figures notable in the LDS Church, including the Cardston colony founder Charles Ora Card. As such, his faith has been a source of inspiration and influence for both his writing and his personal views.[10]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Scott_Card

TBH, I'm actually curious to see how a Mormon might handle the religious aspects of the Superman character.