Team Phantom Lord vs Sabertooth

I think your putting them too high honestly. They stated they weren't enough for the new gen when they came back, and most had to unlock hidden potential to win. What need would there have been for the rapid boost if Natsu could have beaten Sting and Rogue in his current state? They would have trained sure but not as desparately as they were. gajeel either? Lucy still had problems and had absolutely no answer for Minerva iirc. Erza underwent the boost as I recall and still barely beat Minerva, and that was from some ass pull armor. None of this would have been needed unless they were much weaker when they came back.

They stated they weren't enough for the new gen when they came back, and most had to unlock hidden potential to win.

But Natsu didn't, he didn't use his super mode. And Gajeel was only in trouble when Rogue unlocked his secret power.

Mind, without the upgrades, FT would've lost several fights. Like, I think Lyon and Chelia would've won (heck, Rufus might've beaten Grey, or at least gotten a draw!). And Erza pretty much needed hers, without the magic-cutting armor she'd take more damage and the best she could hope for is maybe a draw.

The upgrades mattered, but their base forms vs the new levels of other foes was not what was first implied.

Originally posted by Q99
But Natsu didn't, he didn't use his super mode. And Gajeel was only in trouble when Rogue unlocked his secret power.

Mind, without the upgrades, FT would've lost several fights. Like, I think Lyon and Chelia would've won (heck, Rufus might've beaten Grey, or at least gotten a draw!). And Erza pretty much needed hers, without the magic-cutting armor she'd take more damage and the best she could hope for is maybe a draw.

The upgrades mattered, but their base forms vs the new levels of other foes was not what was first implied.

I agree, they would have lost most of their fights. Laxxus is probably the only who wouldn't have lost early imo.

That's the implication I got. They needed those upgrades or they would have been weak sauce.

They wouldn't have been weak sauce. Natsu would've still been stronger than either of the enemy dragon slayers (and him + Gajeel together would've definitely won). Erza might've been able to beat Minerva without the boost if she hadn't been injured by Kagura.

Without the boost, they'd still be a somewhat-stronger team than the opposition, just not as much.

I disagree. Erza would have been dominated. Even with the boost that brought about years of growth overnight, she barely won.

I'm under the belief that both Sting and Rogue were more powerful than the sand using kid from FT that Natsu barely defeated. If he was taxed fighting that kid, I believe he would have been beaten by Sting. Same for Gajeel vs. Rogue considering Gajeel is a step below Natsu.

Erza was wounded, though.

The boost gave her the new armor that let her win, but she managed to get some hits even without that.

I'm under the belief that both Sting and Rogue were more powerful than the sand using kid from FT that Natsu barely defeated.

Max isn't a kid, he was one of Fairy Tail's wizards from pre-skip who fought against Phantom Lord* and such and was about Gray's age... but Natsu hardly 'barely defeated' him. Max blocked one of Natsu's weaker moves ('Fire Dragon's Iron Fist'😉 and some HtH, then Natsu blew him away. And Natsu didn't even get angry, we know Natsu's attacks literally get stronger when he gets angry.

Sting and Rogue may have both been stronger than Max, but pre-second origin Natsu was way stronger than Max.

And Gajeel didn't get Second Origin. He was beating non-possessed Rogue without an upgrade, just a little training with Tigerlily.

The second origin boost seems to be a bit better than a couple months of intense training, but Gajeel shows they had already gotten really strong.

*Here's Max blasting some of Jose's shades

I thought it required a lot of power to equip, power she wouldn't have had without the boost.

Natsu beat the guy, but he was maxed out at that point. He had nothing left. IMO, Sting would have beaten him at that current state of power.

I reread the Max/Natsu fight, and I think you are giving Natsu too much credit. And he's my favorite character. For most of the brief spar, Max looked like the stronger opponent, and it was even noticed by the spectators that Max was winning. It wasn't until Natsu pulled out his lightning/fire tech that he even looked to be on top, and that maxed him out.

Max was 'winning' when Natsu didn't pull out any of his stronger techs. He pulled out a single Fire Dragon's Iron Fist.

No Roar, no Wing, no Brilliant Flame, and none of his secret arts. No Crimson Lotus: Fire Dragon's Fist (the one he used to beat Gajeel), no Crimson Lotus: Exploding Flame Blade (the one he used to make Gildartz step back and to defeat Sting and Rogue).

Yes, Max was doing well when Natsu wasn't even using his best flame moves. This doesn't translate into Max being stronger than him, just that Max was doing better than expected.

Additionally, we know that emotion explicitly powers up dragon slayers, as we've seen often. He was fighting a friend who he underestimated.

I thought it required a lot of power to equip, power she wouldn't have had without the boost.

Yes, she wouldn't have been able to use that special armor without the boost.

However, if she hadn't been wounded, I'm not sure she'd have needed the special armor to at least make it close. She got some hits in before calling on second origin.

Natsu beat the guy, but he was maxed out at that point. He had nothing left. IMO, Sting would have beaten him at that current state of power.

He ran out after using Lightning Fire mode dragon's roar, which is a move he didn't use against Sting at all.

And again- Gajeel didn't have a boost like that and he was able to shrug Sting's assault just as well as Natsu did.

The way I see it, the boost let Erza use her magic-cutting armor, and it let Natsu use Lightning mode for more than one big attack. Both very important upgrades, but they have a lot aside from that.