Anakin's Fall

Originally posted by Ushgarak
would bugger up Anakin even worse.

Where are you getting that from? I think it would be pretty hard to be buggered up worse than massacring women and children in a fit of murderous rage. And why? How would knowing that his mum was safe negatively affect him? Because it would validate his attachment to her? I'm going to have to agree with Queeq here, thats stupid. He's already attached to her and they know it. Not acknowledging it won't make it go away. If however they put his mind at ease about her then he can stop worrying about her and focus on his Jedi training, allowing him to lose his emotional baggage and get into a position where he can detach himself from her.

I'm not disagreeing with you about Jedi philosophy or saying that the Jedi have the authority to free slaves outside the Republic, but imo the Council should have made an exception in this case. Anakin being trained in the first place is an exception, a dangerous one at that. I don't see why making another one to minimize the risk could do anything but help the situation.

I think Ush is just trying to bring some sense to an otherwise nonsensical plot. Problem is that we shouldn't be the ones to come up with reasons and logic, that should be the the movie's job. It doesn't even begin to hint that moral or ethical quandaries are involved when it comes to Anakin's mother. Her freedom isn't even discussed, and it should have been, even if it was vetoed.

Poor storytelling, plain and simple.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where are you getting that from? I think it would be pretty hard to be buggered up worse than massacring women and children in a fit of murderous rage. And why? How would knowing that his mum was safe negatively affect him? Because it would validate his attachment to her? I'm going to have to agree with Queeq here, thats stupid. He's already attached to her and they know it. Not acknowledging it won't make it go away. If however they put his mind at ease about her then he can stop worrying about her and focus on his Jedi training, allowing him to lose his emotional baggage and get into a position where he can detach himself from her.

I'm not disagreeing with you about Jedi philosophy or saying that the Jedi have the authority to free slaves outside the Republic, but imo the Council should have made an exception in this case. Anakin being trained in the first place is an exception, a dangerous one at that. I don't see why making another one to minimize the risk could do anything but help the situation.

See, this is again about the fundamentals of GL's philosophy. Anakin fails here because he cannot let go. It's not about worrying less, it is about completely letting go, regardless of possible danger. Attachment leads to the Dark Side. By rescuing his mother, they would be validating his attachment, That makes him MORE likely to go to the Dark Side, not less, and it could have been anyone he started slaughtering, and it could have been much sooner and with far less provocation needed than having to see his mother tortured and dying. You say 'make an exception' as if this would be some special privilege. He's not meant to let go as some kind of self-discipline lesson; it's an essential part of not turning evil. 'Making an exception' equates to 'bring on the Dark Side'. As it is, it went wrong (to be fair, he was never meant to return to Tatpoine and the timing of what happened was immensely unlucky). But validating his attachment would not have prevented his fall, it would have made it more likely. Hence it would be a very stupid thing to do, even if it was within their legal power.

That's how GL holds it. You let go; you do NOTHING about it. Doing anything about it is acting on fear and fatal. The job of the Jedi was not to validate Anakin's fears, but to teach him to overcome them. So this comes down again to people not agreeing with GL.

I think these particular points are not particularly speculative. The film is very clear on the problem.

i admit a sharp bias since the only way i can digest the PT is under the conclusion that the old jedi order failed. they were not simply outmaneuvered and defeated, but also caught in the perpetual state of complete incompetence, complacency, naive aloofness, and vulnerability to the very entity that they were likely formed to defend against.

the jedi are supposed to be compassionate, yet rarely show it in the PT. they should have at least attempted to arrange for shmi's freedom since she allowed her only child to risk his life to help them. you cant apply the jedi code of ethics to a purely dick move.

"sorry shmi, but we'll be off convincing your son not to care about you and will be leaving you as a slave. it is our way. thanks for all the help. lulz"

You certainly can apply it when, in the setting, it is a. not a dick move and b. the practically and ethically correct thing to do.

i guess we're at a dead end here if you are set on this idea that shmi was fairly treated. but i'm not budging on this either since i find it to be ethically abominable to abandon a hero to slavery. (she was a slave after all and she did kinda give up all she had to save their butts.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
i guess we're at a dead end here if you are set on this idea that shmi was fairly treated. but i'm not budging on this either since i find it to be ethically abominable to abandon a hero to slavery. (she was a slave after all and she did kinda give up all she had to save their butts.

I don't think anyone is saying that Schmi was fairly treated...only that the Jedi's logic/traditions were internally consistent with George's vision of how the Order operated.

All of us are in agreement that Watto should have been Force Raped and Schmi removed from his "care".

Originally posted by dadudemon

All of us are in agreement that Watto should have been Force Raped and Schmi removed from his "care".

and you are wrong. ush is suggesting that leaving her behind as a slave was the:

the practically and ethically correct thing to do.

he believes it not only falls in line with their philosophy but was pretty much imperative given the circumstances, and i am disagreeing with him. thats when you came in, attempting to needlessly mediate a discussion which you barely even skimmed through.

Personally I think it would only be right to go free Shimi if they were going to go on a mission to free all the slaves on Tatooine.

Otherwise if they went back just to save Shimi just for Skywalker to feel better then that wouldn't exactly be an action that was done because "It was the righteous thing to do."

my argument has nothing to do with freeing slaves, but rather returning a favor...probably the most profound favor from anyone in the saga. yet they leave her as owned property which could easily be sold to any random hutt for a life of sorrow, violence, and possible rape and eventual rancor food. not cool jedi. NOT COOL.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
thanks again ddm, but i think we can handle ourselves fine without you holding our hands.

and you are wrong. ush is suggesting that leaving her behind as a slave was the:

Looks like you need a bit more help to understand that quote you took out of context. Let me hold your hand just a bit more, so you can understand what exactly he was saying, there:

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You certainly can apply it when, in the setting...

Emphasis mine.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
he believes it not only falls in line with their philosophy but was pretty much imperative given the circumstances, and i am disagreeing with him. thats when you came in, attempting to needlessly mediate a discussion which you barely even skimmed through.

Tantrum, much?

You know, I would not respond to you so condescendingly if you would...not do so from the get go. You could have gone about your reply with far less words and in a far kinder way.

You could have just said, "I don't think Ushgarak believes that, dadudemon, because he posted this, here:"

Just a tip on how to post more like an adult.

its not my fault that you jumped the gun.

you could have just read the exchange which you wished to mediate and profess expertise on.

i suspect (admittedly hope) that ep7 kills the debate on jedi and family, considering the next skywalker generation.

or else its "sorry mom and dad, but its our way" as they send han and leia off to some dingy low-budget galatic nursing home and never even call them. come to think of it that would be funny.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
its not my fault that you jumped the gun.

you could have just read the exchange which you wished to mediate and profess expertise on.

You clearly did not read my post or else you would not have posted what you did, here. Go back to read my post to see where you went wrong.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
i suspect (admittedly hope) that ep7 kills the debate on jedi and family, considering the next skywalker generation.

Well...that's what they did in the EU.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
i suspect (admittedly hope) that ep7 kills the debate on jedi and family, considering the next skywalker generation.

or else its "sorry mom and dad, but its our way" as they send han and leia off to some dingy low-budget galatic nursing home and never even call them. come to think of it that would be funny.

Absolutely. Ep7 has a chance to redress many balances and this does need perspective added.

Maybe we see Luke going from more balanced, warmer principles rather than "Oh this order demands that I turn my back on my family and let my Mom get fingered by sandpeople".

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Absolutely. Ep7 has a chance to redress many balances and this does need perspective added.

the family issue kinda has to be addressed or its may turn out as a contradiction to the PT. it may just involve luke teaching the kids that over-attachment is dangerous as it can lead one to be manipulated down the dark path out of despiration, however its going to be pretty lame if they dont express a need to rescue eachother (if they are about to be fingered by sand people, for example).

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Maybe we see Luke going from more balanced, warmer principles rather than "Oh this order demands that I turn my back on my family and let my Mom get fingered by sandpeople".

i think yoda and ben hinted at a shift in jedi protocol in terms of family attachment.

even when ben obviously suspect that luke could be manipulated by vader through his feelings for his sister, he implores luke to bury those feelings, but he also stated "they do you credit".

yoda encourages luke to "pass on what he has learned" to his family. while he left that very vague (talking about leia? leia's kids? lukes kids?) its clear that he is encouraging a family dynamic. (well not TOO close)

Yeah I'd agree with that..

LOL That pic..! Perfectly encapsulating the horror...!!

Superb it is, yeeeees.

i couldnt find a better resolution so, i made one. 🙂 (using it on FB timeline banner) tough part was finding the face, which is from after he saves luke from the tusken raiders and is like "ooobiwaan...".

I like the video where it shows han realising it, personally.