Originally posted by Dolos
Doctor Manhattan is a cartoon character that won't exist beyond fiction. He is among the many devices of our consciousness that we may one day be in a position to manifest.Meaning, like everything, is a matter of perspective. So it doesn't really matter, does it?
That doesn't answer the question, though.
Is everyone pre-Singularity inherently "useless organic matter" because we didn't transcend?
How would you feel if you didn't live to see the Singularity? You seem to have pinned a lot to it happening in your lifetime.
Originally posted by Dolos
And no. He sounds like Ozymandias.
Don Quixote is very much unlike Ozymandias (either one).
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That doesn't answer the question, though.Is everyone pre-Singularity inherently "useless organic matter" because we didn't transcend?
How would you feel if you didn't live to see the Singularity? You seem to have pinned a lot to it happening in your lifetime.
Of course not, it would have been us that spawned the singularity. In the end, every stage in evolution is equally meaningful, from the expansion, to the forming of our terrestrial world, to microbial life. One development cannot occur without another beforehand.
However if I did find life meaningless, it would be the meaningless perception of one individual. Unless of course others attributed meaning to it. In the end meaning is left for the conscious mind to interpret.
Originally posted by Dolosmy point is that we can't desire what is unnatural for us to desire, not that we can't desire things that aren't natural, like immortality.
753.On a fundamental level, I don't think any human being would refuse to possess the the abilities Doctor Manhattan from Watchmen displays - however these powers are mystified and justified as God's and God's alone. Therefore we're told that if we want these things for ourselves, we're evil. It's what we're told, not what we truly desire. It's oppression of fantasy. And imagination and creativity stem from our ability to fantasize. We oppress our intelligence, change is oppressed, especially change in human nature.
However, your belief I suppose is that it is very much human nature preserve our own limited nature. However I would argue as soon as we developed consciousness, developed reasoning through the "I" viewpoint, we should have been willing to diverge from our nature in order to be these manifestations such as Superman, and the Hulk.
However, you have answered the OP, by saying it's not natural for humans to desire something that is not natural. No transcendence can come from that. Therefore omnipotence in the form of unlimited and conscious driven increasing in self-referentiation and intelligence as the primary evolving tool to achieving desired outcomes as opposed to what we begin as in this genetic template, does not exist and cannot exist because it is not natural.
I differ. I am very much a technoprogressive. We created the powerful religious deities, we've created the Superheroes, all in our works. How could these Gods not be in our conscious nature, when we've created them?
our fundamental wants, including the contradicting ones, are part of our biology and the product of evolution. all desires to "transcend" are bound by our natures as animals, they are expressions of that world of mud, you are so eager to discard:
desire for immortality is motivated by fear of death and refusal to accept it
desire for godlike power is rooted in a want for security, fear of scarcity; fear of predation the elements; need for social status, peer aproval and validation; fear of the power of others, insecurity; desire to assert dominance over others, narcisistic self-engrandizing
desire to transcend pain - aversion to pain, which is a survival mechanism
desire to transcend loss - sorrow over losses, fear of new ones
your fictional gods, wouldnt transcend human nature, just hyperexpress some of its most foolish apects. of course, superpowers are impossible regardless of anyone's desire to transcend. they violate physical laws.
accepting we are finite, weak, fragile and flawed isnt accepting defeat. it's accepting ourselves. it takes nothing away from the meaning we can build for our existences, in fact, quite the contrary. remember how empty manhtan's existence was?
Originally posted by Dolosyes, but they're just trying to point out it is absurd for you to pin the meaning of your life on a speculative event that might never happen in your lifetime or at all. if you dont find anything beyond this singularity thing, which you probably will as you grow the **** up, you'll be one frustrated and sad adult.
Of course not, it would have been us that spawned the singularity. In the end, every stage in evolution is equally meaningful, from the expansion, to the forming of our terrestrial world, to microbial life. One development cannot occur without another beforehand.However if I did find life meaningless, it would be the meaningless perception of one individual. Unless of course others attributed meaning to it. In the end meaning is left for the conscious mind to interpret.
That is a very narrow perspective, and shows little comprehension of what I've been trying commune. I feel like I'm getting no where with you in particular.
The most fundamental flaw in your argument was that humans aren't above their natural fears...that they can't let go of superficial biology to be a higher form of life, more relevant in the cosmic perspective of life...which we currently are not. Sure we're prideful, but not very relevant. We could be so much more, and we should be. Above petty mortal fears, focused on returning to the source of creation in a way.
Doctor Manhattan was alone, he wasn't a transformed civilization, he was a transformed individual holding on to his humanity. When he let go, and understood things from a higher perspective, he found meaning in life.
Doctor Manhattan found fulfillment in Before Watchman: Doctor Manhattan #4.
Quantum observation could be a reality, you cannot know the future of transcension. Of course it's impossible for carbon and silicon based life forms, but then you have the transcension hypothesis which states information could exist in such compact states that it surpasses planck scale and sinks to higher level parallel universes, a level IV parallel universe is basically a quantum super position.
Beyond being a superior form of life, the notion is wickedly cool to me, I guess you have my imaginative, weird and extremist side to thank for that.
Originally posted by 753
yes, but they're just trying to point out it is absurd for you to pin the meaning of your life on a speculative event that might never happen in your lifetime or at all. if you dont find anything beyond this singularity thing, which you probably will as you grow the **** up, you'll be one frustrated and sad adult.
Self-fulfilling prophecies are a part of Godel's works as well.
The only reason for me to deviate from this line of education, nanotech, futurism, would be a pure lack of motivation, not growing up.
Originally posted by Doloswe can't rise above our natures. at all. everything we do is by definition in our biological natures. consciousness is a biological phenomenon, so are language and memory, learning, communication etc. all your wants and hopes are too. everything we are is a biological phenomenon. the way you see mental phenomenon as something beyond biology is puzzling as you seem to profess a form of materialism at the same time.
That is a very narrow perspective, and shows little comprehension of what I've been trying commune. I feel like I'm getting no where with you in particular.The most fundamental flaw in your argument was that humans aren't above their natural fears...that they can't let go of superficial biology to be a higher form of life, more relevant in the cosmic perspective of life...which we currently are not.
Doctor Manhattan found grand fulfillment in Before Watchman: Doctor Manhattan #4.
it's not that we cant rise above our natural fears. we have a very natural capacity to push though fear and get shit done. it's that I look at your aspirations to shed our "superficial biology" and all I see is our superficial biology talking through transcendence aspirations.
what is a cosmic perspective of life?
Originally posted by Dolosso the ride is as important as the destination to you in this regard? cool beans then
Self-fulfilling prophecies are a part of Godel's works as well.The only reason for me to deviate from this line of education, nanotech, futurism, would be a pure lack of motivation, not growing up.
Originally posted by 753
we can't rise above our natures. at all. everything we do is by definition in our biological natures. consciousness is a biological phenomenon, so are language and memory, learning, communication etc. all your wants and hopes are too. everything we are is a biological phenomenon. the way you see mental phenomenon as something beyond biology is puzzling as you seem to profess a form of materialism at the same time.it's not that we cant rise above our natural fears. we have a very natural capacity to push though fear and get shit done. it's that I look at your aspirations to shed our "superficial biology" and all I see is our superficial biology talking through transcendence aspirations.
what is a cosmic perspective of life?
Life from a perspective greater than the sum total of humanity.
This is your philosophy, mine is our dna is very separate from our consciousness, our birth defects, our unwittingly designed physical dilemmas, mere mistakes repeated throughout earth biology, that's not us, we're our consciousness. That, in my mind, is intelligence, and what intelligence is capable of ultimately from a cosmic perspective, in an eternity of evolution, is not much unlike the power of omnipotence. That's my perspective.
Originally posted by 753
my point is that we can't desire what is unnatural for us to desire, not that we can't desire things that aren't natural, like immortality.
What would be unnatural to desire? Pain? I think we can find examples of people who desire things that are unnatural to desire.
Originally posted by 753
our fundamental wants, including the contradicting ones, are part of our biology and the product of evolution. all desires to "transcend" are bound by our natures as animals, they are expressions of that world of mud, you are so eager to discard:desire for immortality is motivated by fear of death and refusal to accept it
desire for godlike power is rooted in a want for security, fear of scarcity; fear of predation the elements; need for social status, peer aproval and validation; fear of the power of others, insecurity; desire to assert dominance over others, narcisistic self-engrandizing
desire to transcend pain - aversion to pain, which is a survival mechanism
desire to transcend loss - sorrow over losses, fear of new ones
I think you're projecting the wrong philosophy onto Dolos. He's not a materialist. The desire to transcend is some kind of universal imperative in his system, separate from biology. I agree with you about these sources but Dolos might not. You need to go back one step.
Originally posted by 753
your fictional gods, wouldnt transcend human nature, just hyperexpress some of its most foolish apects.
I don't see why this would be. Wouldn't they be as likely to hyperexress our better aspects.
Originally posted by 753
of course, superpowers are impossible regardless of anyone's desire to transcend. they violate physical laws.
Some powers do, some do not, but all of them could be possessed within a simulation. Singularitarians usually propose that these would be indistinguishable from reality. I'd argue that any difference would be largely meaningless but I suspect you'd disagree.
Originally posted by 753
accepting we are finite, weak, fragile and flawed isnt accepting defeat. it's accepting ourselves. it takes nothing away from the meaning we can build for our existences, in fact, quite the contrary. remember how empty manhtan's existence was?
Dr. Manhattan is an interesting example here. I haven't read the Watchmen sequels but hat acceptance that he has to finally make in the book is that he really is beyond humanity. He can no longer be humble in the way humanity can be.
Originally posted by Oliver North
But even then, Dolos is no Quixote. In his version of the tale, the windmills would turn into giants and he would one shot them and go home to bang the blonde damsel in distress. Dolos' ideas about power and such are the opposite of ambition; he essentially believe technology+time=magic, and is waiting for someone else to discover the thing that will make his life worthwhile. He's some guy watching Quixote charge the windmill going, "when he kills those giants, I'm going to get so laid".
Originally posted by Oliver North
what are you doing to bring about the singularity, and more meaningfully, what are you doing to ensure that the benefits from such technological advancement are distributed in an equitable way among the population of the world?I don't really mean that like a dick either. Sure, it is cool if you believe that technology will one day make all of your personal issues disappear, but unless you are actively pursuing some type of contribution to that, you are essentially waiting for someone else to do it. If you have appraised your life and are attempting to find meaning outside of the technological singularity, you are actually supporting the point I made above, about rational expectations and such.
It'd be easier if you just explained your aspirations, but I'm sure that is a wall of text I will ignore. Have you read Don Quixote?
Originally posted by Dolos
My first active step is education.You bet your ass I've got big plans.
And no. He sounds like Ozymandias.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaosyou've misunderstood my point. all human desires are natural, even contradicting or excentric ones. it is in the masochist's nature to eroticize pain. other people might desire it to punish themselves, to take their minds off other thoughts, so they can push themselves beyond the pain, etc. but all this is natural. my issue with his philosophy is that he doesn't see how these transhumanist fantasies aren't beyond base human nature, but reflect some aspects of it.
What would be unnatural to desire? Pain? I think we can find examples of people who desire things that are unnatural to desire.
I think you're projecting the wrong philosophy onto Dolos. He's not a materialist. The desire to transcend is some kind of universal imperative in his system, separate from biology. I agree with you about these sources but Dolos might not. You need to go back one step.
which still wouldn't amount to transcending human nature, rather expressing it just the same. but as I said above, what I meant was that such refusal to accept our biological limitations and such desires to be rid of them are rooted in our biology as well.
I don't see why this would be. Wouldn't they be as likely to hyperexress our better aspects.
yes, many weaker superpowers are possible. assuming the simulation is possible I can see how it could be real to those immersed in it, insofar as their perceptions are concerned, though this requires an emotional willingness to accept sensorial illusions on equal footing with external reality. I am not so inclined.
Some powers do, some do not, but all of them could be possessed within a simulation. Singularitarians usually propose that these would be indistinguishable from reality. I'd argue that any difference would be largely meaningless but I suspect you'd disagree.
that was it exactly, but the whole point was that he was no longer human and his new outlook was still defined by his (new) physical nature. self-acceptence remains the moral of the story. transhumanist paradoxically desire posthuman natures to satisfy some human nature urges, however. self-acceptance is not their thang.
Dr. Manhattan is an interesting example here. I haven't read the Watchmen sequels but hat acceptance that he has to finally make in the book is that he really is beyond humanity. He can no longer be humble in the way humanity can be.