I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Are you talking about Sweden? No matter which way you put it, the unions there have a far stronger influence than in most western nations. Like Astner mentioned, the reason Sweden doesn't have an official minimum wage is because the Unions are powerful enough to set wages via collective bargaining. They'd probably shoot you for trying that in the US.
If you're not talking about Sweden then... well, neither was I.
To be clear, though, I do favour a high minimum wage- higher than most countries have it. Logically speaking, though, it can always go too high, and I do believe union influence in Sweden has pushed it to the point where it has endangered jobs. Or at least it did at one point; that was an analysis based on the early years of the 21st century. If you can establish that this is not so, then fair enough.
I also broadly favour unions as a needed voice; the US' demonisation of them is unsettling. But Unions very often do themselves no favours in the 'being bloody stupid;' department as well.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.
Unions have been on a steady decline since the 60s, and while I don't necessarily agree with Unionism as an end-goal it is more or less the only real bargaining chip workers have. I think there's a very obvious correlation between decreasing salaries and increasing top-level wages, and the weakening of unions.
Weak workers unions is a large cause of the financial problems we see in eastern europe as well.
Really, it's a bit disingenuous to quote just the first part of what I said there and ignore the context of the rest. Like I said, I was referring to Sweden, where the unions are far from weak. If you are talking about the US, then yes, they've been weakening for ages. Context is important here. And indeed, weak unions can cause a big problem as well- I am absolutely in agreement that workers need a bargaining mechanism of some form.
I guess I'm a bit confused because you seemed to be taking what I was saying as a. an attack on unions and b. a claim that unions are generally too strong, so if that was the impression I gave then it was in error. I did say that an overly high minimum wage is a sign of over-mighty unions- but how many places actually have an excessive minimum wage? Virtually none that I know of, hence focussing on Sweden, with all due regard to the irony of it not actually having a literal minimum at all.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
If you're not talking about Sweden then... well, neither was I.
Sweden's unions are in problems because they can't maintain that level with such a steady flow of immigration. A lot of that immigration is because of failing economies in countries with weaker unions though, as such it's not a fault of the union itself but other policies that harm it.
The salaries really aren't too high.
They're managable because there are fewer superrich people in the country.
Originally posted by krisblaze
^You wrote this though.I was referring to Europe and America mostly.
Well fine- but then I am not quite sure what you were calling me out on. I have no issue with a claim that many unions in Europe and America- the latter particularly- are too weak.
I think the UK is about right though.
Well, I think it's possible for them to start representing the wrong interests.
If a union start representing the interest of certain politicians instead of the workers' then that's certainly a problem, but that's something that just becomes more likely as a union grows more powerful, it's not a guarantee.
But then it's a union (understood as labour union which is what we're discussing) in name only. Anything could be wrong given that it's not working as intended 😛
Well I'd contend that the era of closed shop agreements- considered such an issue that they eventually pretty much got outlawed across much of Europe, with the assent of all but the most extreme left wing of the political spectrum, were a demonstration of what happens when unions become too powerful and become a problem for the labour market.
(and on the other side of the spectrum, in the US, the complete lack of any general protection against being arbitrarily fired from your job is an example of the abuses if unions are being shut out from the labour process- that kind of situation is unthinkable in Europe)
But on a more day-to-day basis, wage negotiation is always going to be a power struggle between unions and companies. I think it is inescapable that if unions become too powerful in that context, then basic wages can become too high, which is a killer on inflation.
Wages have to bear some sort of resemblance to the supply of labour, else you just end up with a lot of people out of work. Minimum wage is meant to stop companies abusing a plentiful labour situation. If Unions price workers out the market, it's their own fault.
Closed shop is not something I agree with.
That's an abuse of power, and abuse of power is not inherent but a sign of something not working as intended.
The "too high wages" you're talking about is simply people trying to get enough to live by though. Given how bosses are getting bigger and bigger bonuses whilst worker rights and salaries are on a 50 year long decline, I think that is a pointless discussion though 👆