Kas'im is rougly Caedus tier, whom Luke manhandled. And humiliated
Luke sneak attacked him from behind, which gave him significant advantage at the beginning. On top of that Luke demonstrated on Caedus far more lethal and deadly performance than ever. And despite all of that Caedus still heavily battered him in return. Brining Cardus in this thread is completely misplaced and unnecessary.
I also enjoy how many people ignore the situation during the fight: Caedus utilized the Vong environment to his advantage where he could. Caedus was not at Luke's level in a head to head saber duel. He only survived the day because Luke allowed him to, which is again the very weakness I see possibly causing Luke's death here.
Originally posted by ZampanóThat entire series deserves to be an AU canon. Better than a lot of profic.
Into the Storm has been declared canon.
Anyways, I have not seen anything that says Luke had help to beat Sidious. Only some [/i]really[/I] stretching interpretations of Leia glowing in the panel or something. Which Han also did. And Chewie.
I'm sorry but Caedus is in no way at Luke's tier. Luke is the most powerful jedi of his time, and also mastered the Baran-Do techniques faster than Jacen. That is by far the most important fact to decide this. Also Caedus was decent when in a rage, and then was average. Jaina defeated him, and Luke can defeat Jaina. And he definitely would have less emotional qualms about killing Caedus than Jaina did.
Originally posted by tarfeef101
I'm sorry but Caedus is in no way at Luke's tier. Luke is the most powerful jedi of his time, and also mastered the Baran-Do techniques faster than Jacen. That is by far the most important fact to decide this. Also Caedus was decent when in a rage, and then was average. Jaina defeated him, and Luke can defeat Jaina. And he definitely would have less emotional qualms about killing Caedus than Jaina did.
That's just the thing, though: he had several chances to kill Caedus and didn't, which is exactly why she went to train with the Mandos to learn how to take him down.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Caedus is Luke's tier--with a lightsaber. But he's no match for Luke's TK, hate to break it to you.
Jacen was able to Force blast Luke only by catching him off-guard with tendrils:
"Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising."
But Luke, also, needed to catch Jacen off-guard to Force blast him:
"Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave".
Then again Luke was unable to counter Jacen's TK:
"Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling.
"Dad, look — "
Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood".
The fight shows rather clearly that there is hardly any difference in TK capabilities since both were able to successfully utilize it against each other.
I also enjoy how many people ignore the situation during the fight: Caedus utilized the Vong environment to his advantage where he could. Caedus was not at Luke's level in a head to head saber duel. He only survived the day because Luke allowed him to, which is again the very weakness I see possibly causing Luke's death here.
Luke, also, utilized Vong technology to his advantage, he Force blasted Jacen into tendrils nad then tried to kill him, while Jacen was still trapped:
"Only one leg remained caught, though it was still entwined in a half a dozen places. Luke limped forward, circling toward Jacen's trapped side".
Add to the fact that Luke started fight by snick attack from behind, while Caedus was unprepared, which gave Luke huge advantage right from the beginning of the fight.
Jaina defeated him, and Luke can defeat Jaina. And he definitely would have less emotional qualms about killing Caedus than Jaina did.
On top of that she was empowered by Luke:
Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything.
She managed to chop off already disabled arm but still lost the fight. So even healthy Jaina empowered by Luke < crippled Jacen.
In final fight Jacen still had only one arm at his expense. And still he had upper hand for the most part of the fight:
"She saw a fan of crimson light arcing toward her out of the dark side of the pit and spun toward it, blocking and kicking in the same move. Caedus grunted as her boot caught him somewhere above the waist, but behind his crimson blade, he was no more than a gray blur, and it was impossible to tell where the kick had landed.
A black boot heel came shooting under Jaina's guard, driving hard into her sore ribs. She stifled a cry and circled into the shadows, trying to acclimate her eyes to the darkness because it was impossible to sense Caedus in the Force. He fought to keep his advantage, dancing back and forth behind his crimson blade, anticipating her every move-and making her pay for each step with a painful kick or elbow strike.
Knowing that sooner or later one of Caedus's blows could be fatal, Jaina risked a quick look around, searching for something she could Force-hurl."
Jacen would have won the fight, if Jaina hadn't experienced rare and circumstantial unity with the Force:
"Then Jaina opened herself fully to the Force, drawing it in through the power of her emotions-not through her anger or pain, as a Sith might, but through her love of what her brother had been:the teenage jokester who could always find hope in a desperate situation, the questioning warrior who had bested the Yuuzhan Vong warmaster in personal combat, the reluctant champion who had shown a galaxy the way to compassionate victory.
The Force came pouring in from all sides, saturating Jaina and devouring her, filling her with a roaring maelstrom of power, carrying away her pain and leaving in its place the strength not only to survive, but to rise and fight."
Overall Jacen's performance against Jaina only proves that he is Luke's tear.
Originally posted by Arhael
I don't deny that Luke's TK might be superior. But that superiority is negligible.Jacen was able to Force blast Luke only by catching him off-guard with tendrils:
. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising."
"Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and [b]his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wallBut Luke, also, needed to catch Jacen off-guard to Force blast him:
"Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave".Then again Luke was unable to counter Jacen's TK:
"Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling."Dad, look — "
Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood".
The fight shows rather clearly that there is hardly any difference in TK capabilities since both were able to successfully utilize it against each other.
That's rather amusing to see you accusing others of being ignorant, when in fact your opinion is built on ignorance.
Luke, also, utilized Vong technology to his advantage, he Force blasted Jacen into tendrils nad then tried to kill him, while Jacen was still trapped:
"Only one leg remained caught, though it was still entwined in a half a dozen places. Luke limped forward, circling toward Jacen's trapped side".Add to the fact that Luke started fight by snick attack from behind, while Caedus was unprepared, which gave Luke huge advantage right from the beginning of the fight.
Prior to first fight Jaina disabled Jacen's arm with sniper rifle, while he was busy fighting Mandalorians.
On top of that she was empowered by Luke:
Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything.She managed to chop off already disabled arm but still lost the fight. So even healthy Jaina empowered by Luke < crippled Jacen.
In final fight Jacen still had only one arm at his expense. And still he had upper hand for the most part of the fight:
"She saw a fan of crimson light arcing toward her out of the dark side of the pit and spun toward it, blocking and kicking in the same move. Caedus grunted as her boot caught him somewhere above the waist, but behind his crimson blade, he was no more than a gray blur, and it was impossible to tell where the kick had landed.A black boot heel came shooting under Jaina's guard, driving hard into her sore ribs. She stifled a cry and circled into the shadows, trying to acclimate her eyes to the darkness because it was impossible to sense Caedus in the Force. He fought to keep his advantage, dancing back and forth behind his crimson blade, anticipating her every move-and making her pay for each step with a painful kick or elbow strike.
Knowing that sooner or later one of Caedus's blows could be fatal, Jaina risked a quick look around, searching for something she could Force-hurl."
Jacen would have won the fight, if Jaina hadn't experienced rare and circumstantial unity with the Force:
"Then Jaina opened herself fully to the Force, drawing it in through the power of her emotions-not through her anger or pain, as a Sith might, but through her love of what her brother had been:the teenage jokester who could always find hope in a desperate situation, the questioning warrior who had bested the Yuuzhan Vong warmaster in personal combat, the reluctant champion who had shown a galaxy the way to compassionate victory.The Force came pouring in from all sides, saturating Jaina and devouring her, filling her with a roaring maelstrom of power, carrying away her pain and leaving in its place the strength not only to survive, but to rise and fight."
Overall Jacen's performance against Jaina only proves that he is Luke's tear. [/B]
great job, Arhael! 😱
can you post some feats of Jacen's telekinetic strength, like lifting objects and such?
didn't he lift a ship, or ship wing one time?
Sure. Jacen has plenty of comparable feats to Luke.
First of all a Falanasi sensed the same power in Jacen as she did in Luke:
Akanah's eyes caught his gaze again and held it almost physically. "You have the same power I once sensed in your uncle Luke, but without the light”.
Yes, Jacen did move a starship. Didn’t really lift it but it was done on planet with gravity and without seeming effort:
"And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.
Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel."
Size of that cruiser:
"The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base."
Luke empowered Jaina on distance, when she fought Jacen. Similarly Jacen empowered his mother:
He pictured Leia sitting in the copilot's seat. Her emotions and her presence in the Force washed over him and he visualized himself in her place, behind her eyes, seeing what she saw. For a moment he was simply observing; but then a feeling like a sigh drained out of him and it was as if he were exhaling an infinite breath into his mother-no, through his mother. Now he was no longer sitting in the alcove between two topiary bushes, but staring at an array of lights and readouts and at hands that weren't his. Beyond the console, Coruscant loomed in the viewport.
If Jaina had joined the effort, she was hardly detectable. He had drowned out her presence in his own mind with the sheer strength of the telekinesis he was projecting.
Take this, Mom. Use me. Use the Force I'm channeling through you.
Luke Force-grabbed flying b-wing:
He grabbed the vessel in the Force and held it in place, then opened fire with his laser cannons. The startled B-wing pilot applied more power, trying to break free. Luke drew on the Force more heavily to counter the maneuvering thrusters, and all of the energy flowing through his body began to make his skin nettle.
And Jacen replicated this feat in the same space battle:
Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above.
I will point out that skin nettles, when Force user strains his limits, so holding that ship was huge effort. Specifically Luke and Jacen developed overloading technique to be able to do it.
Also, Jacen could form Force barrier that can deflect lightsaber attacks and even turbolaser strikes:
Zekk took a cannon blast full on his blade and was driven to his knees. Jaina spun to his side and tapped two more bolts away, only to find herself badly out of position as a third dropped toward her head.
Zekk's lightsaber swept up just centimeters from her face, catching the bolt on the blade tip and sending it zipping across the dune. Jaina spun away from another attack and glimpsed Jacen and Tahiri standing back-to-back, Jacen holding his hand above their heads, cannon fire ricocheting away as though he held a deflector shield in his palm. That was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before.
Luke has never demonstrated similar Force barrier feats.
Also, all of the above feats are done before Jacen became even more powerful as Caedus.
Originally posted by Arhael
Sure. Jacen has plenty of comparable feats to Luke.First of all a Falanasi sensed the same power in Jacen as she did in Luke:
Akanah's eyes caught his gaze again and held it almost physically. "You have the same power I once sensed in your uncle Luke, but without the light”.
Yes, Jacen did move a starship. Didn’t really lift it but it was done on planet with gravity and without seeming effort:
"And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.
Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel."Size of that cruiser:
"The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base."
Luke empowered Jaina on distance, when she fought Jacen. Similarly Jacen empowered his mother:
He pictured Leia sitting in the copilot's seat. Her emotions and her presence in the Force washed over him and he visualized himself in her place, behind her eyes, seeing what she saw. For a moment he was simply observing; but then a feeling like a sigh drained out of him and it was as if he were exhaling an infinite breath into his mother-no, through his mother. Now he was no longer sitting in the alcove between two topiary bushes, but staring at an array of lights and readouts and at hands that weren't his. Beyond the console, Coruscant loomed in the viewport.
If Jaina had joined the effort, she was hardly detectable. He had drowned out her presence in his own mind with the sheer strength of the telekinesis he was projecting.
Take this, Mom. Use me. Use the Force I'm channeling through you.Luke Force-grabbed flying b-wing:
He grabbed the vessel in the Force and held it in place, then opened fire with his laser cannons. The startled B-wing pilot applied more power, trying to break free. Luke drew on the Force more heavily to counter the maneuvering thrusters, and all of the energy flowing through his body began to make his [b]skin nettle
.And Jacen replicated this feat in the same space battle:
Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above.
I will point out that skin nettles, when Force user strains his limits, so holding that ship was huge effort. Specifically Luke and Jacen developed overloading technique to be able to do it.Also, Jacen could form Force barrier that can deflect lightsaber attacks and even turbolaser strikes:
Zekk took a cannon blast full on his blade and was driven to his knees. Jaina spun to his side and tapped two more bolts away, only to find herself badly out of position as a third dropped toward her head.
Zekk's lightsaber swept up just centimeters from her face, catching the bolt on the blade tip and sending it zipping across the dune. Jaina spun away from another attack and glimpsed Jacen and Tahiri standing back-to-back, Jacen holding his hand above their heads, cannon fire ricocheting away as though he held a deflector shield in his palm. That was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before.Luke has never demonstrated similar Force barrier feats.
Also, all of the above feats are done before Jacen became even more powerful as Caedus. [/B]
You should be the Chronicler of Caedus's feats, my Savant friend. 😎
I agree that Bane has a chance to win with the orbalisks. Especially given that this threads location is the Dark Temple. Even without them he has the possibility of doing that drain for a win.
Originally posted by Arhael
I don't deny that Luke's TK might be superior. But that superiority is negligible.
Er, no:
'Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...
Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing. Then he was aware of brilliant white light coming right at him. In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, al-most blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.'
Jacen tries to block Luke with the Force and Luke proceeds to fracture his collarbone. A direct contest between them shows that Luke is the clear superior.