Revamping the tierings/power levels in comics...

Re-read the OP; I do not wish to map my idea on how characters currently rank (in view of current feats)...

I'd throw everything away as pertains all characters and start over; this time with greater organization and guidelines in place...there would be no Herald level characters (like Superman for example) going around sneezing solar systems away or moving Earth sized objects (or even objects the size of our Moon) with his bare hands.

Still, even if one re-vamps for consistency, I think one should pay attention at least some to what they currently represent in comics.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I wouldn't revamp the tiers at all. Just change how specific characters fit in.

The very nature of comics is fluid. And that's without considering multiple takes and opinions on the same character. At best, we could hope for more consistency.

No doubt, comics are fluid and characters can out perform/under perform relative to characters in their same tier...

However, if it were up to me, it would make more sense; Thor wouldnt be tanking Celestial attacks without a really good explanation as to why (he'd also have to possess a super-duper amp to boot)...

A character with the ability to bust a planet that fails to to KO a Herald would similarly be explained; it wouldnt "just happen" like it currently does...

So with my system, things would remain fluid, it would just have to be explained "why" certain characters are performing above or below their stations...

Originally posted by Q99
Still, even if one re-vamps for consistency, I think one should pay attention at least some to what they currently represent in comics.

No question...

What a given character represents should be considered, but still scaled down...

For example, in current comics a Phobos sized object is nothing...a meta might be able to bust it...but in reality that Phobos sized object is a monster fully capable of eliminating all life on the surface of the Earth and has has the mass of a mountain range (it weighs billions and billions of tons).

Busting it would be a monumental feat; especially from the eyes of a meta (in the OP), such a feat would appear God-like...

But in current comics, things are so inflated that busting this object would be ho-hum for a great many characters...

This would (and should IMHO) definitely change...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Not really a "new" tierings list, just a coherent idea of how to define character power levels and also set limits (a parameter) of what a character in a particular tier should be capable of doing...

It avoids ridiculousness like Thor absorbing and redirecting a blast capable of destroying 1/5th of the universe for example; Thor (and other characters in his tier) would have definitive limits on what they could do and any writer could work within those confines while maintaining suspension of disbelief...

Yeah, I see that now.

Not really my thing, tbh. I like that heralds have crazy feats most of the time. No offence.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I once touched upon this topic with Rage and zopzop and I think its something worth discussing in detail...

In comics (both in Marvel and DC) you have characters performing feats that are far beyond what they really should be accomplishing (IMHO of course)...as a result, I fully believe dam near every aspect of both DC and Marvel comics needs to be retconned.

Now assumming that it was up to you, how would you rebalance everything so that there is atleast some logic and consistency in the type of feats various characters are able to perform?

I'll go 1st to give an example of what I am asking for:

Street Level
Low: Can beat up the weak and the Elderly...or a normal person that is physically impared in some way; may be grossly out of shape and slow for example.
Mid: Can beat up common crooks/thugs.
High: Can beat up a very skilled and physically powerful opponent...Brock Lesnar for example.

Enhanced
Low: Can defeat scores of normal humans without much effort.
Mid: Can go crazy and wreck vehicles and small buildings one after another.
High: Can wreck large buildings and devastate city blocks.

Herald
Low: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Martian Moon Deimos (12km diameter).
Mid: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Martian Moon Phobos (22km diameter).
High: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Saturn Moon Siarnaq (32km diameter).

Trans
Low: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Saturn Moon Dione (1120km diameter).
Mid: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Neptune Moon Triton (2706km diameter).
High: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Jupiter Moon Io (3636km diameter).

Skyfather
Low: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a small planet; Mars (6800km diameter).
Mid: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a medium sized planet; Earth (12756km diameter).
High: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a large planet; Neptune (49500km diameter).

Elder God
Low: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a gas giant; Saturn (120536km diameter).
Mid: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a small star; Red Dwarf (210000km diameter).
High: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with an average star; Our Sun (1390000km diameter).

Cube Being
Low: Can reality warp several solar systems at will.
Mid: Can reality warp dozens of solar systems at will.
High: Can reality warp a small pocket dimension at will.

Abstract/High Powered Cosmic
Low: Can bust a Galaxy.
Mid: Can bust a Galactic Cluster.
High: Can bust a Super Cluster.

God Tier
Low: Can wreck havok on a universal scale at will.
Mid: Can destroy a universe, but not all at once.
High: Can 1 shot an entire universe.

Quan Tier
Always high: Can kill everything and can't be killed

Hulk Tier
The highest there is: Just insane!

FIXED

I love making charts and scales regarding characters' powers and abilities, so I can relate to your objective. But consider the following, eg...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Herald
Low: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Martian Moon Deimos (12km diameter).
Mid: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Martian Moon Phobos (22km diameter).
High: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Saturn Moon Siarnaq (32km diameter).

I have to know which moon means what, and how big it is? I think things would be simpler if you set a standard for each tier, Eg, from the above: Low Herald can still mean a Deimosbuster, and this would be a unit of *1*. Mid Herald, then, could simply be *2* (or 3, etc). Also, because this is a relative scale to some degree, it gives leeway for characters' outlier feats.

On the other hand, going in the opposite direction, energy/matter manip can get really complicated. Are you saying Low, Mid and High Herald can all do the same thing to the same degree? Eg, all can rearrange molecules And transmute elements on a moon-size scale?

I don't mean to nitpick; I'm playing Devil's Advocate more than anything. But based on my own experience with setting up tiers and stuff (and as you alluded with your own efforts), this can be quite the undertaking. Things could get simplified with separate scales for each ability (strength, durability, e/m manip), but then one starts venturing into territory the comics have already handled in a simpler fashion.

I dunno. It's fun to play with this stuff, but it ain't easy.

Here is my two cents, I also think on affected areas when I try to measure characters

Human: Defined as a regular Human, just like US.

Low: Out of shape, or physically or mentally impaired
Middle: Normal People
High: Fit to Athlete level

Street level: defined as any human on costume with at least certain proficiency on a field be that fighting, camouflage, fire arms, armed combat very important, this is though TRAINING, NO META GENES, OR MUTANT GENES on action

low: Robin
middle: Nightwing
high: Batman

Meta human/mutant: any human with at least an extra gene that gives him an ability, be that bending spoons, shape shifting or an extraordinary ability, but this is due to some genetically difference from a human, it does not necessarily means that a low meta can defeat a high street level. The Level of area affected by power display also will raise the character on the tier.

Low: at least 1 ability capable to destroy/affect/cover a small area from a house to a building
Mid: at least 1 ability capable to destroy/affect/cover mid range area from building to several blocks
High: at least 1 ability capable to destroy/affect/cover a large area from several blocks to a city

Super Human/Herald. Majority of the genes differ from humans, be that due to gaining powers though freak accident or embed with them. The Level of area affected by power display also will raise the character on the tier.

Low: at least 1 ability capable to destroy/affect/cover a small area from a city to a country
Mid : at least 1 ability capable to destroy/affect/cover a mid range area from a country to a continent
High :at least 1 ability capable to destroy/affect/cover a large area from a continent to a planet

Super human/Herald Team Wrecker: an individual capable of fighting a team or a group of meta humans or super humans

Low : capable of fight a team composed of meta humans
Mid: capable of fight a team composed of meta humans and heralds
High :capable of fight a team composed of heralds/super humans

Trans the highest tier onto characters who still abide to SOME rules of logic.

Low: at least 1 ability capable to destroy/affect/cover more than one planet to 4 planets
Mid: at least 1 ability capable to destroy/affect/cover more than 4 planets
High: at least 1 ability capable to destroy/affect/cover a solar system

Skyfather At least 1 ability that defies the laws of logic or capable of destroy/affect/cover several planes of reality up to a galaxy, still bounded by decrees of Abstract entities

Low
Mid
High

Elder Defies laws of logic still bounded by decrees of Abstract entities, Capable of defeating Skyfathers

Low
Mid
High

Cube at least 1 ability capable of destroy/affect/cover a large are of the universe to one universe at a time, NOT capable of overturn Abstract entities decrees

Low
Mid
High

Abstract

Low
Mid
High

Universal at least 1 ability capable of destroy/affect/cover one universe at a time, capable of overturn Abstract entities decrees

Low
Mid
High

Multiversal at least 1 ability capable of destroy/affect/cover several universes capable of overturn Abstract entities decrees

Low
Mid
High

Omniversal at least 1 ability capable of destroy/affect/cover everything capable of overturn Abstract entities decrees

I fixed this a little bit

Correction

I meant

1 OR MORE ABILITIES where this fits

EJ:

Meta human/mutant: any human with at least an extra gene that gives him an ability, be that bending spoons, shape shifting or an extraordinary ability, but this is due to some genetically difference from a human, it does not necessarily means that a low meta can defeat a high street level. The Level of area affected by power display also will raise the character on the tier.

Low: at least 1 OR MORE ABILITIES capable to destroy/affect/cover a small area from a house to a building
Mid: at least 1 OR MORE ABILITIES capable to destroy/affect/cover mid range area from building to several blocks
High: at least 1 OR MORE ABILITIES capable to destroy/affect/cover a large area from several blocks to a city

it wouldnt work due to dynamic powersets

Yes, I don't think anything will be 100% accurate. And I will be Quan if I think I'm flawless.

But dynamic power sets can be explained by holding back and not holding back.

For example I can see a regular Surfer being a High herald at normal levels, but not holding back I can see him going up to the team wrecker tier.

The issue with most if not all tier systems I've seen is that they tend to look only at destructive power or (on lower levels) fighting ability to gauge placement. You end up with tiering systems that aren't very useful, because characters like Batman and to a greater extent Reed Richards punch out of their weight classes.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

Street Level
Low: Can beat up the weak and the Elderly...or a normal person that is physically impared in some way; may be grossly out of shape and slow for example.
Mid: Can beat up common crooks/thugs.
High: Can beat up a very skilled and physically powerful opponent...Brock Lesnar for example.

Enhanced
Low: Can defeat scores of normal humans without much effort.
Mid: Can go crazy and wreck vehicles and small buildings one after another.
High: Can wreck large buildings and devastate city blocks.

As for "enhanced", I'm concerned that lots of characters qualify for Low Enhanced who aren't all on the same level. Someone like Green Arrow for instance could probably beat up hordes of normal guys without much trouble, but so could lots of stronger, more skilled characters who don't qualify for Mid or High.

http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Destructive+Capacity

I found this more interesting than useful.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The issue with most if not all tier systems I've seen is that they tend to look only at destructive power...

I've also tended to focus on Strength, Durability and Speed, breaking down energy/matter manip separately (and in here, mentioning how much so-n-so could destroy).

Originally posted by Omega Vision

I think normal people don't even register as "street level" in ordinary forum parlance. I would argue that "Brock Lesnar" would be the bottom of the barrel of comic book hero ability, the kind of "good fighter, physically fit, nothing special by comic standards" character, maybe a friend of a hero who gets training because he/she gets kidnapped all the time.

Yea.

Brock Lesnar couldn't hope to pull off much of the stuff kid sidekicks do.

wyatt wingfoot was a "brock lesnar" type guy that was associated with the FF and she-hulk among others

I agree with this completely it's one of the reasons comics have so many WTF moments. Many of which are never explained some characters and writers need to be reigned in regarding what character A,B, or C can do by giving limits IMHO it will force writers to be more creative. Because at a certain point writers start to pull powers and abilities out of their asses just to tell there story.

Originally posted by Mindship
I love making charts and scales regarding characters' powers and abilities, so I can relate to your objective. But consider the following, eg...

I have to know which moon means what, and how big it is? I think things would be simpler if you set a standard for each tier, Eg, from the above: Low Herald can still mean a Deimosbuster, and this would be a unit of *1*. Mid Herald, then, could simply be *2* (or 3, etc). Also, because this is a relative scale to some degree, it gives leeway for characters' outlier feats.

On the other hand, going in the opposite direction, energy/matter manip can get really complicated. Are you saying Low, Mid and High Herald can all do the same thing to the same degree? Eg, all can rearrange molecules And transmute elements on a moon-size scale?

I don't mean to nitpick; I'm playing Devil's Advocate more than anything. But based on my own experience with setting up tiers and stuff (and as you alluded with your own efforts), this can be quite the undertaking. Things could get simplified with separate scales for each ability (strength, durability, e/m manip), but then one starts venturing into territory the comics have already handled in a simpler fashion.

I dunno. It's fun to play with this stuff, but it ain't easy.

Next to each moon I have its diameter listed; while diameter isnt the be-all concerning mass, it just gives a rough frame of reference where each object is bigger and more massive than the one before it...for example:

Deimos has the mass of a mountain...

Phobos has the mass of a mountain range (it would about the size of the mountain range Molecule Man dropped on the heroes in the original Secret War)...

And so on and so on...

So a Low Herald would be able to "do" things on the scale of Deimos; it could be by object busting, or overall matter/enegy manip, or something similar in scale...

Now when it comes to characters with mind control powers or something not standard, its more of a judgement call when trying to put in terms of "approximate Deimos affecting ability" (for example, maybe a character with Mental Powers that ranks as a Low Herald could touch the minds of 100 people, while a Mental Powered Mid Herald could touch the minds of 1000 people...again, just for example).

The overall idea is to have a system in place where there are parameters defining each tier (and section of that tier); what I posted in the OP is just an example of a system I think writers should follow, but I have no doubt that better systems than mines are fully possible...

Originally posted by celestialbodies
I agree with this completely it's one of the reasons comics have so many WTF moments. Many of which are never explained some characters and writers need to be reigned in regarding what character A,B, or C can do by giving limits IMHO it will force writers to be more creative. Because at a certain point writers start to pull powers and abilities out of their asses just to tell there story.

👆