Originally posted by Naija boy
Well she blasted back Betty prior to Betty ascending to WBH levels. The totality of the mindless ones has historically Been too much for both Umar and dormammu to outright destroy ( hence the barrier) so that is even historically consistent. It just so happens that Pak wanted to take WBh to another level.
Dormy usually opts to just control them most of the time and he could simply depower them if need be but I get what you're saying concerning Pak.
^very true. It isnt even half a planet buster.
Originally posted by Sundipped
Dormy usually opts to just control them most of the time and he could simply depower them if need be but I get what you're saying concerning Pak.
Yeah, Dormmamu typically controls some of them as minions (taking advantage of their mindlessness while ensuring the barrier stays up, but when it has come down he has even needed strange to "save" him in his own words against the totality of the hordes of mindless ones.
Originally posted by Sundippedyou have to take into account the claim that umar herself didn't think she could survive them en masse. hulk also accidentally smashed the barrier open that has kept them at bay for untold times. he's stronger than their entire race with indirect impacts of his physical actions.
I understand what you're saying but they were getting one shot nonetheless.
Originally posted by psycho gundamYou mean, "the wish machine" is stronger than the entire race.
you have to take into account the claim that umar herself didn't think she could survive them en masse. hulk also accidentally smashed the barrier open that has kept them at bay for untold times. he's stronger than their entire race with indirect impacts of his physical actions.
Originally posted by Naija boyIt does matter. A great deal, regardless of what you are saying.
That is of little relevance. They vary from appearance to appearance. And they were specifically mentioned as being too powerful in conjunction for Umar herself to survive in the appearance in question. External lesser portrayals have no relevance. Moreover, one of the mindless ones strengths has always been there tremendous numbers. Hulk was dealing with there entire race. Even if one of them could be destroyed by lets call it X amount of force, destroying all of them would require, X amount of force multiplied by whatever amount of mindless ones there were. What we know for certain is that the totality of the mindless ones in that instance were enough that Umar (a hell lord) in her own dimension couldn't survive let alone put them all down. No matter how you slice it therefore, the amount force hulk generated was enormously impressive.It doesnt matter what happened anywhere else. We go by what was shown IN the comic, not elsewhere. To do otherwise is ridiculous. The comic portrayal and authorial intention was clear and rather indisputable.
The facts:
1. Mindless Ones are not always shown as the incredibly powerful beings you want us to decide they are. (Unless the Wish Machine has something to do with powering them down/destroying them with ease.)
2. The material of the Dark Dimension is weaker and more brittle than that of the 616. Canon. For you to keep ignoring this or discredit the statements of it, is not in keeping with your normally high-standards of conduct NB.
3. With the fact that matter in the DD is of an even weaker nature than in the 616, when we see that the so-called "Heralds" of the HotM being disintegrated, it is NOT lending credence to the belief that they were indeed "Heralds" at all. Again: (Unless the Wish Machine has something to do with powering them down/destroying them with ease.)
4. If the Mindless Ones, Dark Dimension Matter, and the "Heralds" were, in fact, not as high-level as has been argued, or if they are even in question at this point, how can these feats and details be used as canon in ongoing threads and tier voting? Unless, Again: (Unless the Wish Machine has something to do with powering them down/destroying them with ease.)
And, if I am mistaken about the Wish Machine, I am sorry. But, it still does not take anything from my other points of contention.
You can't, personally, decide which Canonical Statements, Canonical Narration, Canonical Panels and Canonical Feats are MORE "Canonical" than others. Not in a forum where all members are looking in the same rulebook.
Originally posted by Horrificus
I'm sorry guys, but it just ain't the same as the 616. It is weaker. Using it in the same formulas to gain "feat supremacy" for WBH just ain't "kosher".Once again, all together now:
Horrificus, when HOTM was written Pak did not take your scans into consideration, nor should you count on them to be somehow contiguous with what the Hulk did in the Dark Dimension. All this behavior does is point to another low-ball attempt at the feat. Hercules was directly measured against WB Hulk the guy was powerful enough to give Mangog a beating possibly, and this is going off of on panel evidence on how he handled the amplified original Wendigo, while holding back in Vegas. Now when he went into the Dark Dimension, he was pouring it on.
Originally posted by StoicI don't make the rules. I'm just defending "Continuity". He's my second cousin, twice removed.
Horrificus, when HOTM was written Pak did not take your scans into consideration, nor should you count on them to be somehow contiguous with what the Hulk did in the Dark Dimension. All this behavior does is point to another low-ball attempt at the feat. Hercules was directly measured against WB Hulk the guy was powerful enough to give Mangog a beating possibly, and this is going off of on panel evidence on how he handled the amplified original Wendigo, while holding back in Vegas. Now when he went into the Dark Dimension, he was pouring it on.
But, going after poor, amusing Mangog... you have made me sad.
Originally posted by Horrificus
I don't make the rules. I'm just defending "Continuity". He's my second cousin, twice removed.But, going after poor, amusing Mangog... you have made me sad.
There was nothing contiguous about the story that Pak wrote concerning HOTM and the scans that you provided though. This would denote that peoples minds work like computers, and that they could remember everything that has gone on in the world. I don't believe that Pak was thinking of that story when he wrote HOTM tbh. The Wendigo citation, and the Hercules reference alone should be enough to allow the reader to gauge just how powerful the Hulk and Betty were at that time. They were far above the Herald strength, and durability levels.
Originally posted by Horrificus
It does matter. A great deal, regardless of what you are saying.
Also, regardless of what Umar says, or another book shows, etc.
If Blade is able to kill Mindless Ones with a sword, all bets are off. Period. Unless you can show that the sword he is using is some sort of Uber Powerful weapon. There will be no cherry-picking of feats here.
Mindless Ones have been shown to be weaker than explained to be in the HotM series. This does not mean that your choice of books is the one we must use as "canon". 😆 No cherry picking here.
Im not sure whats wrong with you Horrificus. In every Hulk thread you bring up the same nonsense, get debunked, provide no coherent rebuttal and then move on to the next one, spewing the same gibberish.
First and foremost, you suggesting that im trying to "cherry pick" whats canon is false and merely an attempt to hide a blatant strawman. Im not making categorical statements about the nature of the mindless ones throughout their history. Im making claims about the nature of the mindless ones as they were portrayed in the HOTM incident. That is what matters and THAT is what will enable us determine the impressiveness of the Hulk feat. Calling that "cherry picking" is asinine and borderline trolling. In even your own post, you mention:
Mindless Ones have been shown to be weaker than explained to be in the HotM series.
which means you implicitly acknowledge that they were explained to be at a specific power level in the HOTM series. How in the world then can you discount the power level they were portrayed in the series and begin to appeal to external portrayals (such as them fighting against blade and whatnot) when what we are trying to ascertain specifically is the impressiveness of a feat involving them within that very same series?! Your argument is ill conceived and almost entirely unintelligible. To reasonable people, this should go without saying but ive long abandoned any expectation of rationality concerning you and the hulk. So to make it even more painfully clear: IF a characters powerlevel is specifically indicated within an arc, then that indication/portrayal holds precedence when discussing incidents involving the character/set of characters from that specific arc . This is flipping axiomatic and thus beyond basic. Previous portrayals external to the arc in question, let alone by different authors, are of no relevance whatsoever. Goodness gracious facepalm
Your alleged facts are little more than a conjunction of cockamamie theories that highlight the reason defying leaps of logic you are willing to take on anything regarding the Hulk. Lets have a look:
Mindless Ones are not always shown as the incredibly powerful beings you want us to decide they are. (Unless the Wish Machine has something to do with powering them down/destroying them with ease.)
This is a strawman that has been addressed. You are attempting to recharacterize this argument in order to make it easier for you to float your nonsense. I never claimed mindless ones were always portrayed powerfully. I even mentioned they fluctuate from appearance to appearance. I dont even need them to be consistenly portrayed in a certain way. I did not decide anything. Greg Pak did. He decided to portray them at a level where they were too powerful in conjunction for Umar to put down. It follows that this holds precedence as only what was indicated within the comic has any relevance to the feat in question. You are literally attempting to ignore what the writer himself indicated in favor of appeals to lesser external portrayals all to lowball the feat. That is quite simply trolling.
he material of the Dark Dimension is weaker and more brittle than that of the 616. Canon. For you to keep ignoring this or discredit the statements of it, is not in keeping with your normally high-standards of conduct NB.
I havent ignored this at all and have in fact answered it in several threads. The damage caused to the dark dimension planet is by far the least impressive part of the feat, and so acknowledging your claim does absolutely nothing to denigrate the overall feat. Disintegrating, the entirety of the mindless ones who could overcome Umar, as well as Armcheddon, Wendigo,Bi Beast, and Fing Fang Foom...all with the shockwave of the mid air impact, is far more impressive and indicative of the level of power WBH was at. It is a non-issue as the feats ultra-level of impressiveness rests more on the characters destroyed with the planets destruction serving as a secondarily impressive fact.
(As a sidenote. the Dark Dimension is a dimension made up of several realms joined together with many of these realms having different physical compositions. Surfers statement regarding fragility would only be relevant to the part of the dark dimension they were in at the time. The realm of the mindless ones has been mentioned in the past as having matter denser than earths, and we know that it was also destroyed by the Hulks collision. So that would even offsets the claims of fragility)
With the fact that matter in the DD is of an even weaker nature than in the 616, when we see that the so-called "Heralds" of the HotM being disintegrated, it is NOT lending credence to the belief that they were indeed "Heralds" at all. Again: (Unless the Wish Machine has something to do with powering them down/destroying them with ease.)
This part is truly baffling. There is absolutely no evidence for a deterministic relationship between the durability of the environment within the dark dimension and that of the characters within in it. So to go from pointing out an instance where the environment was said to have been weaker to claiming that the characters durability was somehow weaker is overt non-sequitur reasoning and does NOT follow at all. That is a ludicrous leap of logic and speaks volumes of the incoherence of your argument.
se.) 4. If the Mindless Ones, Dark Dimension Matter, and the "Heralds" were, in fact, not as high-level as has been argued, or if they are even in question at this point, how can these feats and details be used as canon in ongoing threads and tier voting? Unless, Again: (Unless the Wish Machine has something to do with powering them down/destroying them with ease.)
There is no reasonable question or point of contention being brought up. All we are witnessing are the irrational anti-hulk musings that you are attempting to masquerade as arguments. Your repeated backhanded attempts to insert your baseless and entirely imagined wishing well hypothesis are indicative of how willing you are to discard what is actually in the COMIC in question. Atrocious.
d, if I am mistaken about the Wish Machine, I am sorry. But, it still does not take anything from my other points of contention. You can't, personally, decide which Canonical Statements, Canonical Narration, Canonical Panels and Canonical Feats are MORE "Canonical" than others. Not in a forum where all members are looking in the same rulebook.
You are grossly mistaken about the wishing well and you know this. Your other points of contention have been thoroughly debunked again, with your bias and ineptitude at making basic logical connections exposed. This discussion is not a discussion disputing the levels of canonicity of certain events. That is a strawman birthed in your overactive imagination. We are talking about a certain feat which was clearly portrayed and whose details are not ambiguous. Your so called arguments against this amount to attempts to ignore virtually the whole comic, appeals to irrelevant external occurences, while inserting horrendous reasoning and your pet delusions in the place of actual on panel depiction.
It is more than apparent you dont like the Hulk nor HOTM but seriously get over it. It happened and the events within it were self evident. Stop embarassing yourself repeatedly with you stubbornly inane attempts at downplaying. It is unbecoming and reduces the intellectual integrity of these discussions. facepalm
Originally posted by Naija boy👆 I'm not giving the thumbs up on the ownage Horrifucus just endured or the post itself but instead i'm giving the thumps up on the BS Horri spreads and the call out of his biasism...
Im not sure whats wrong with you Horrificus. In every Hulk thread you bring up the same nonsense, get debunked, provide no coherent rebuttal and then move on to the next one, spewing the same gibberish.First and foremost, you suggesting that im trying to "cherry pick" whats canon is false and merely an attempt to hide a blatant strawman. Im not making categorical statements about the nature of the mindless ones throughout their history. Im making claims about the nature of the mindless ones as they were portrayed in the HOTM incident. [B]That is what matters and THAT is what will enable us determine the impressiveness of the Hulk feat
. Calling that "cherry picking" is asinine and borderline trolling. In even your own post, you mention:which means you implicitly acknowledge that they were explained to be at a specific power level in the HOTM series. How in the world then can you discount the power level they were portrayed in the series and begin to appeal to external portrayals (such as them fighting against blade and whatnot) when what we are trying to ascertain specifically is the impressiveness of a feat involving them within that very same series?! Your argument is ill conceived and almost entirely unintelligible. To reasonable people, this should go without saying but ive long abandoned any expectation of rationality concerning you and the hulk. So to make it even more painfully clear: IF a characters powerlevel is specifically indicated within an arc, then that indication/portrayal holds precedence when discussing incidents involving the character/set of characters from that specific arc . This is flipping axiomatic and thus beyond basic. Previous portrayals external to the arc in question, let alone by different authors, are of no relevance whatsoever. Goodness gracious facepalm
Your alleged facts are little more than a conjunction of cockamamie theories that highlight the reason defying leaps of logic you are willing to take on anything regarding the Hulk. Lets have a look:This is a strawman that has been addressed. You are attempting to recharacterize this argument in order to make it easier for you to float your nonsense. I never claimed mindless ones were always portrayed powerfully. I even mentioned they fluctuate from appearance to appearance. I dont even need them to be consistenly portrayed in a certain way. I did not decide anything. Greg Pak did. He decided to portray them at a level where they were too powerful in conjunction for Umar to put down. It follows that this holds precedence as only what was indicated within the comic has any relevance to the feat in question. You are literally attempting to ignore what the writer himself indicated in favor of appeals to lesser external portrayals all to lowball the feat. That is quite simply trolling.
I havent ignored this at all and have in fact answered it in several threads. The damage caused to the dark dimension planet is by far the least impressive part of the feat, and so acknowledging your claim does absolutely nothing to denigrate the overall feat. Disintegrating, the entirety of the mindless ones who could overcome Umar, as well as Armcheddon, Wendigo,Bi Beast, and Fing Fang Foom...all with the shockwave of the mid air impact, is far more impressive and indicative of the level of power WBH was at. It is a non-issue as the feats ultra-level of impressiveness rests more on the characters destroyed with the planets destruction serving as a secondarily impressive fact.
(As a sidenote. the Dark Dimension is a dimension made up of several realms joined together with many of these realms having different physical compositions. Surfers statement regarding fragility would only be relevant to the part of the dark dimension they were in at the time. The realm of the mindless ones has been mentioned in the past as having matter denser than earths, and we know that it was also destroyed by the Hulks collision. So that would even offsets the claims of fragility)
This part is truly baffling. There is absolutely no evidence for a deterministic relationship between the durability of the environment within the dark dimension and that of the characters within in it. So to go from pointing out an instance where the environment was said to have been weaker to claiming that the characters durability was somehow weaker is overt non-sequitur reasoning and does NOT follow at all. That is a ludicrous leap of logic and speaks volumes of the incoherence of your argument.
There is no reasonable question or point of contention being brought up. All we are witnessing are the irrational anti-hulk musings that you are attempting to masquerade as arguments. Your repeated backhanded attempts to insert your baseless and entirely imagined wishing well hypothesis are indicative of how willing you are to discard what is actually in the COMIC in question. Atrocious.
You are grossly mistaken about the wishing well and you know this. Your other points of contention have been thoroughly debunked again, with your bias and ineptitude at making basic logical connections exposed. This discussion is not a discussion disputing the levels of canonicity of certain events. That is a strawman birthed in your overactive imagination. We are talking about a certain feat which was clearly portrayed and whose details are not ambiguous. Your so called arguments against this amount to attempts to ignore virtually the whole comic, appeals to irrelevant external occurences, while inserting horrendous reasoning and your pet delusions in the place of actual on panel depiction.
It is more than apparent you dont like the Hulk nor HOTM but seriously get over it. It happened and the events within it were self evident. Stop embarassing yourself repeatedly with you stubbornly inane attempts at downplaying. It is unbecoming and reduces the intellectual integrity of these discussions. facepalm [/B]
My main point, that is consistently ignored, is that the nature of the Dark Dimension, as well as the things that have gone on within, are NOT of a consistent framework at all.
While you guys have been insulting me and bringing up feats and details that are contrary to those that I have been submitting, you have been adding to my argument.
The DD is NOT a stable environment, when compared to others that have been depicted in comics. It is specifically defined and has been described as a dimension where the rules do not apply.
Showings, on-panel, have proven this and supported it.
That's all. To try and insult your way through this fact is a joke.
Do what you want with it, but don't slam me for presenting it.
Originally posted by HorrificusLol here we go....the old "well I'm presenting th facts and blah blah don't slam me with insults" listen you have been here long enough that know that no one plays nice here...the fact you are complaining about this shows that you are a pussy.....no offense...
My main point, that is consistently ignored, is that the nature of the Dark Dimension, as well as the things that have gone on within, are NOT of a consistent framework at all.While you guys have been insulting me and bringing up feats and details that are contrary to those that I have been submitting, you have been adding to my argument.
The DD is NOT a stable environment, when compared to others that have been depicted in comics. It is specifically defined and has been described as a dimension where the rules do not apply.
Showings, on-panel, have proven this and supported it.
That's all. To try and insult your way through this fact is a joke.
Do what you want with it, but don't slam me for presenting it.
Horrificus you once again fail to reply or respond substantively to the specific and NUMEROUS rebuttals of your points I made in this very thread.
You dont have what it takes to engage in an actual logical argument so now you are shying away ONCE AGAIN under the pretense of being insulted. Yes i did insult the crap you were spewing. But only after meticulously deconstructing the poor logic behind it.
The durability of the environment in the dark dimension does not have any effect on the durability of the characters involved. Such an assumption is baseless and completely unsupported. You CANNOT get around that which is why you havent addressed it. Thus you cannot simply throw out the feat by appealing to the dark dimensions matter when the part of the feat that is most important is distinct from the supposedly weaker matter in the Dark dimension.
You are being slammed for weakminded arguments and failing to address the numerous flaws that have been pointed out in your positions by not only me but several others as well. You are not presenting anything. Honestly just stick to posting random jokes and whatnot and save yourself and everyone else the trouble of laboring through these terrible arguments of yours.
Naija, tone down the hostility, please.
Horrificus, while there is merit to the argument that the Dark Dimension was weaker, merit that I actually agree with, that doesn't diminish Hulk's power in the slightest given his other feats during that arc.
Now, if you two aren't going to play nicely, please put each other on ignore.
Originally posted by -Pr-Lol about time...
Naija, tone down the hostility, please.Horrificus, while there is merit to the argument that the Dark Dimension was weaker, merit that I actually agree with, that doesn't diminish Hulk's power in the slightest given his other feats during that arc.
Now, if you two aren't going to play nicely, please put each other on ignore.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Naija, tone down the hostility, please.Horrificus, while there is merit to the argument that the Dark Dimension was weaker, merit that I actually agree with, that doesn't diminish Hulk's power in the slightest given his other feats during that arc.
Now, if you two aren't going to play nicely, please put each other on ignore.
Ok, sorry bout that.
