Yea, you can fanboy all you want, I just don't see the point in assuming other eras are weaker 'just because,' without anything indicating that that's the case.
Whichever the era. Bane's, Krayt's, NJO, TOR, etc.. Plenty of feats, plenty of sword duels, I just find the excuses to discount them really weak, y'know?
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, you can fanboy all you want, I just don't see the point in assuming other eras are weaker 'just because,' without anything indicating that that's the case.Whichever the era. Bane's, Krayt's, NJO, TOR, etc.. Plenty of feats, plenty of sword duels, I just find the excuses to discount them really weak, y'know?
Originally posted by Vensai
The prequel era is supposed to be the jedi's golden age when lightsaber and force disciplines had been developed for generations.
And we're comparing the very best of other eras to people a step or two down in the golden age.
I'm not, in fact, saying that the golden age didn't have the best. I'm just saying that other eras can still compete with the people who aren't the very best.
Bane's era had people honed in combat from centuries of war, though aside from Bane often slacking in non-saber disciplines, but never said to be slacking in that one.
And Krayt's era? Well, he's from the golden age himself, and has it's refined knowledge! As are multiple others, and we know the Jedi of that time were formed by Luke, who's stronger than anyone from the Golden Age.
Bane's era just had a bunch of featless fodder
Except for all the feats.
They might not have as many feats, but we still have some good battle histories on some of them, plus their battles against each other.
and rule of Two meant each succeeding generation would be stronger than the next.
Or was supposed to be. There were times of stasis or even backsliding, including the time a Sith turned light and destroyed a lot of the knowledge before being taken down.
Also, one of the big purposes of his project was reclaiming lost knowledge. Even if you count Bane's era for less since it did have that problem, many other eras had that knowledge.
For a real life comparison, it's like saying mankind was more powerful during the 1600s than today after years of technology development. [/B]
Except training people isn't exactly like technology. The biological bodies are still the exact same, and even the amount of talent with a sword. The force potential of the individuals, also, is completely decided by what you can find, if Bane has more potential than the Sith, say, 6 generations down, then that one'll just have to make due with skills in other areas to make up for less power. Bane appeared to be not all that far from the top of natural force power to begin with, so that specific area isn't one that can really increase through training. Well, at least until you get stuff like the creation of a being with far more force power.
Now, they did improve their knowledge of the dark side and came up with more techniques and such to help your force power, but we're talking improvement by inches as every bit of knowledge must be re-taught each generation before you start adding more, not technology-style leaps.
And, this isn't an entire society 'improving technology' like in real life- it's two researchers at a time. That makes for very slow work, inching along generation by generation.
A lot of the stuff we know they studied and spent a lot of time studying isn't combat-applicable- making a shadow in the force to hide them from Jedi precog was vital, but took a ton of effort and doesn't help in a fight. Essence transfer, manipulating the minds of the populace, manipulating midichlorians.
(in some of these cases, we know people from other areas who're better at them- Krayt and Muur surpass RoT Sith in life manipulation)
We have seen people from past eras show up and still be plenty powerful in other eras. Muur's talisman showing up convincing Vader that, (1), he could beat Palpatine with it, and (2) it may very well take him over in the process.
Originally posted by Q99
[BZannah's not as exceptional but she's no slouch even with blade.Then there's Raskta Lsu. Raskta Lsu is reported to have killed as many Sith with her blade as the Thought Bomb killed, and Bane was able to stand up to that.
Personally I think it's just rating people from other eras lower because they're from other eras. I can't think of anything Dooku did that'd actually put him above them. [/B]
Dooku has outdueled many foes of whose feats are better than Kas'im and Zannah.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Again, killing many Sith isn't really a feat. Grievous did the same.
It's totally a feat. Especially if they're done in large quantity.
And Grievous's killing of Jedi is, in fact, a large part of his feats and why he's respected. Without that he'd just be the cyborg that Kenobi owned.
Dooku has outdueled many foes of whose feats are better than Kas'im and Zannah.
Really? Who?
I mean, let's face it, aside from late-war Obi-wan and Anakin he hasn't faced that many skilled foes.
Unless you're counting the likes of Ventress and Opress, in which case, them, better than Kas'im? Hah.
This is just kinda 'assuming them weak'. There aren't any low feats that indicate they're weaker, and they've been indicated to be walking death against most foes of their era.
Originally posted by Q99
It's totally a feat. Especially if they're done in large quantity.And Grievous's killing of Jedi is, in fact, a large part of his feats and why he's respected. Without that he'd just be the cyborg that Kenobi owned.
Originally posted by Q99
Really? Who?I mean, let's face it, aside from late-war Obi-wan and Anakin he hasn't faced that many skilled foes.
Originally posted by Q99
Unless you're counting the likes of Ventress and Opress, in which case, them, better than Kas'im? Hah.
Originally posted by Q99
This is just kinda 'assuming them weak'. There aren't any low feats that indicate they're weaker, and they've been indicated to be walking death against most foes of their era.
Originally posted by Q99
Vader is no slouch in the slightest with sword, having beaten groups of Jedi masters at once.I'd put him over TCW Maul.
Vader's not going to take TCW Maul in Sabers. I find it very difficult to even believe he would match him.
The guy held his own for a while against Sidious. Completely stomped Opress who has bested the likes of Ventress and Plo Koon.
Not to mention his one one ones with Kenobi showed there's not much disparity between the 2 of them in Sabers. The same Kenobi who is the Master of Soresu and stalemated/bested Sith Anakin.
Mace Windu and Yoda comes to mind. Anakin twice in TCW. Consistenly outdueling Grievous,
There's Grievous, sure, but Grievous is definitely below Anakin or Kenobi.
When did he outduel Windu or Yoda? He held off Yoda but that's all in TCW, and wasn't the last time he sparred with Mace way pre-PM?
beating Tholme and Bulq, beating Vos, Ventress and three Nightsister while drugged and blind.
Of which Bulq and especially Tholme and Vos are below Kenobi. Ventress and the two nightsisters was pretty good.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Vader's not going to take TCW Maul in Sabers. I find it very difficult to even believe he would match him.The guy held his own for a while against Sidious. Completely stomped Opress who has bested the likes of Ventress and Plo Koon.
Vader's a more experienced version of Anakin, who beat Dooku.
Not to mention his one one ones with Kenobi showed there's not much disparity between the 2 of them in Sabers. The same Kenobi who is the Master of Soresu and stalemated/bested Sith Anakin.
But then there was the time Kenobi was doing good against Maul *and* Opress together.
Originally posted by Q99
There's Grievous, sure, but Grievous is definitely below Anakin or Kenobi.
Originally posted by Q99
When did he outduel Windu or Yoda?
Originally posted by Q99
He held off Yoda but that's all in TCW, and wasn't the last time he sparred with Mace way pre-PM?
Dark Rendezvous suggests that ''Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.''
Besides, they fought on Boz Pity in Obsession
Originally posted by Q99
Of which Bulq and especially Tholme and Vos are below Kenobi. Ventress and the two nightsisters was pretty good.
Another impressive feat from Labyrinth of Evil;
He flicked his blade quickly, ridding two of the guards of their staffs, then placing the glowing tip a millimeter from Grievous's death-helmeted visage.
Originally posted by Q99
But then there was the time Kenobi was doing good against Maul *and* Opress together.
And before that, there was the time Opress alone spanked Obi-Wan and Anakin together twice in the same episode.
There's absolutely zero reason to believe that Obi-Wan could duplicate that performance on neutral terrain against both brothers. He'd be crushed.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And before that, there was the time Opress alone spanked Obi-Wan and Anakin together twice in the same episode.There's absolutely zero reason to believe that Obi-Wan could duplicate that performance on neutral terrain against both brothers. He'd be crushed.
While Kenobi's win was hard fought and well done, he ''only'' fought evenly with Maul in the Season 4 final, indicating they are on the same level in swordplay.
Ventress is on par with Obi-Wan and Anakin individually and yes, you're right, while wounded she was able to take them both on in "Nightsisters." Maul [literally] curbstomped Savage in "Revival" and Savage, in turn, not only defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan together in "Witches of the Mist" but ragdolled Dooku and Ventress combined in that same episode and drove them both to retreat.
Certain individuals have been deliberately conflating the exception for the rule.