Are you a statist?

Originally posted by Oliver North
[b]freedom, c'mon [/B]

No need to free Dom, I feel fairly free. uhuh

Originally posted by Oliver North
that was actually the point

though, looking at it, you are talking about taxes rather than the social contract, so we aren't really arguing about the same thing

I agree: the section of Mairuzu's post I quoted was about taxes because I don't like income taxes. I don't really care for a discussion about the political philosophies of Locke (I assume that's the flavor of Social Contract that everyone is using in this thread).

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Your little island paradise would still probably get invaded by the glorious US and A.

Why?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why?

To annoy you, I guess. Also, oil.

@ so that we can force you to pay us taxes and/or take your natiural resources. Duh.

Originally posted by Oliver North
actually, the social contract is not connected to government policy, taxation, or even the existence of government itself.

Do you have arguments as to why its not false?

Originally posted by Oliver North

Since you have already declared that you don't care what the political and philosophical history of the social contract is (which I take to mean copying text from Libertarian sites is the extent you have read about the issue), I'll put it with less nuance than I'd like:

I'm aware of it already so I didn't care to your rambling so we can stick to the main topic of taxation being coercion.

Originally posted by Oliver North

You give up the right to behave in socially destructive ways because it benefits you to live in a society. You can deny it all you want [on the internet, sic], but this behaviour is empirically reproducible, cross-culturally, and almost certainly a product of your genes.

So you're a collectivist? It doesn't make it moral because of some abstract fictitious "greater good" nonsense.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
There is no such thing as a social contract. Its made up so its pointless to define it.

We can do away with coercion in exactly the same way, its made up. Obviously we have no need to worry about it any longer. There is force, sure, that is a very real thing but this "coercion" is an invention of yours. Merely pathetic objection: "I am weak." and nothing more.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree: the section of Mairuzu's post I quoted was about taxes because I don't like income taxes.

I'd entertain arguments against it, but taxes to me are like a byproduct, not an actual issue themselves. Like, tax rate should be = spending rate, and I'm sure there are interesting arguments about how or where to raise that revenue from, its just not as interesting to me. If it isn't reasonably possible to pay the bills without the income tax, then you sort of need to have it, or you need to rethink spending.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't really care for a discussion about the political philosophies of Locke (I assume that's the flavor of Social Contract that everyone is using in this thread).

I'm a bit more Hobbsian, almost because I see social grouping as a survival behaviour because it benefited our ancestors (evolution itself almost becomes the Leviathan), but I'm actually really a fan of how Nietzsche put it. Some people are naturally more powerful and willing to harm others for, literally, no good reason. Some limitations need to be put on those "powerful" individuals to prevent them from enacting the worst forms of violence against us. Thus, the social contract is like, a self-limiter. What is more interesting to me, is there must be a window of how much limitation a person needs vs their own personal desires designed by evolution, and we only limit as much as we had to so that we survived. Its like, the limit of how much of a dick we can be to each other... idk, I'm a geek for evolutionary arms races...

Originally posted by Mairuzu
taxation being coercion.

ok, if this is the specific topic you want to talk about.

given I think taxation is, or at least should be seen as, a byproduct of policy, the literal question is moot, but otherwise, sure, I believe all things the government does are coercive, if we define it broadly enough. I think that might actually be tautological...

I don't think taxation is violence, and I don't think you can draw an immediate line between such broadly defined "coercive behaviour" and morality. If I see someone passed out and give them CPR, that is immensely coercive.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
And yet it exists. We may(here, mainly you, I guess) not like it, disagree with it, question its legitimacy, or even outright deny it. Doesn't change the fact that the state is real and has very real domestic and even foreign power. Sure, it's ultimately enabled and powered by schmucks like you and me, but as of Tuesday, Apr 30, 2013; 4:48:00AM, the govt is real.

Freedom is the opposite of slavery. Both of these things also happen to be real.

That's all nice and dandy, but then, going by your logic, what's exactly preventing me from saying "Bah, bullshit. There ain't no such thing as a voluntary society! Only states are legitimate!" Also, a voluntary society does NOT mean 'freedom from theft.'

You can keep repeating "its real its real, I say its real" over and over but you've yet to provide any proof. The arbitrary lines drawn on a map that we imagine in our heads? That's not REAL. Have you ever thought about what the word "real" even means? It seems like this is yet another inevitable semantics battle. The people in costumes are real. They have guns, those are real. They have buildings with logos, those are real. What is NOT real is the AUTHORITY that is IMAGINED by a COLLECTIVE to have. That authority is not real.

What is Freedom to you? Are you free from taxation? Are you free from democratic rule? These laws that say you cannot do this and you have to do that?

What is slavery to you?

You said freedom is REAL and then you're trying to say voluntary (which is freedom) isnt real?

Its amazing how you guys bash Anarchy while you live with it everyday. 😆

You don't have the government in your social affairs do you? You love having the freedom to pick what to eat, what to buy and what to wear. Yet you are indoctrinated so well to defend your masters you call government and need them to be there for everything else and then some. I'm sure you dont favor the wars and killing children with drones we collectively pay for. If you do then, theres no point arguing with me. You'd be a fool.

It's all well and good if you dislike taxes on principle, but I have trouble envisioning a successful modern society built without them or something similar.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
We can do away with coercion in exactly the same way, its made up. Obviously we have no need to worry about it any longer. There is force, sure, that is a very real thing but this "coercion" is an invention of yours. Merely pathetic objection: "I am weak." and nothing more.

Yes you can deny coercion but that does not mean you are not being coerced and that does not change the morality of it. Have you not been in contact with anyone who hasn't paid their taxes? Coercion CAN BE very real in the sense that if you do not pay, you will be punished.

Its like two slaves saying that coercion isn't real because they haven't gotten whipped since they are obedient. Its a pointless argument like most of what is going on in here

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Its amazing how you guys bash Anarchy

... I'm a [small "a"] anarchist

actually, if that is an anarcho-capitalist symbol as your avi, our core beliefs are probably not that far off. /shrug

Originally posted by Oliver North
ok, if this is the specific topic you want to talk about.

given I think taxation is, or at least should be seen as, a byproduct of policy, the literal question is moot, but otherwise, sure, I believe all things the government does are coercive, if we define it broadly enough. I think that might actually be tautological...

I don't think taxation is violence, and I don't think you can draw an immediate line between such broadly defined "coercive behaviour" and morality. If I see someone passed out and give them CPR, that is immensely coercive.

Taxation being violence is something you brought up and for some reason did it again just to bulk the post I guess.

Taxation. Extortion. Coercion. Pick whatever you want. Its a group of people telling you that YOU have to pay because they said so. It's that simple.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It's all well and good if you dislike taxes on principle, but I have trouble envisioning a successful modern society built without them or something similar.

Too harsh stoned I misread.

Do you enjoy paying taxes to fund a government that is involved with destructive behavior?

Just because you have no idea who will pick the cotton doesn't change the moral aspect. You're doing a good job at avoiding it, probably due to the obedience instilled into you by the state and its collective worshipers.

The state is the only religion atheist still believe in. The illusion of authority. Its sad.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
You had to edit something to say something idiotic?

Do you enjoy paying taxes to fund a government that is involved with destructive behavior?

Just because you have no idea who will pick the cotton doesn't change the moral aspect. You're doing a good job at avoiding it, probably due to the obedience instilled into you by the state and its collective worshipers.

The state is the only religion atheist still believe in. The illusion of authority. Its sad.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Taxation being violence is something you brought up and for some reason did it again just to bulk the post I guess.

ya, where could I have gotten that idea:

Originally posted by the OP from the other thread that is closed
Originally posted by Mairuzu
"In the interests of efficiency, I have decided to distill every argument I have ever had with your average statist, so that I can hand it out to those who argue that government is voluntary, if I don't like it I can leave, taxation is not violence, etc.

I thought this might also be of use to you, because life is short."

cool though, we don't have to talk about that either

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Taxation. Extortion. Coercion.

in most instances, those words have different meanings to me.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Pick whatever you want. Its a group of people telling you that YOU have to pay because they said so. It's that simple.

well, sure, in the broadest terms we can say paying protection money to a gang is similar to paying taxes. I guess I hear you, but, not to just echo everyone else, if all you are saying is that we are forced to pay taxes, then, ok...

like, I think the way you interpret the moral application of this is academic, but what do you want me to do, try to convince you that you don't feel the way you do about something?

Smugness is irrelevant. I just like verbally roughhousing with yall. stoned You all indulgence in it from time to time, no ones a saint here. I know nothing about any of you on a personal level so don't take it to heart.

What is wonderful about the free market and mankind is that we will find solutions. Just because we don't know what will happen if we free the slaves doesn't mean it shouldn't happen and that there are very destructive things occurring on such a incomprehensible scale with this illusion of authority.

But the freedom of slaves happened throughout the world. Except in this secret little collective one. Which brings enormous wealth to the masters as the free-ranged cattle use state capitalism and as the economy grows, the state along with it.

oh and yeah, I edited the other post dammit.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Smugness is irrelevant. I just like verbally roughhousing with yall. stoned You all indulgence in it from time to time, no ones a saint here. I know nothing about any of you on a personal level so don't take it to heart.

What is wonderful about the free market and mankind is that we will find solutions. Just because we don't know what will happen if we free the slaves doesn't mean it shouldn't happen and that there are very destructive things occurring on such a incomprehensible scale with this illusion of authority.

But the freedom of slaves happened throughout the world. Except in this secret little collective one. Which brings enormous wealth to the masters as the free-ranged cattle use state capitalism and as the economy grows, the state along with it.

Edit: I saw that, and I was pleasantly surprised, but you still come off as smug. And I know smugness because game recognizes game.

Originally posted by Oliver North
ya, where could I have gotten that idea:

Lol, ah yeah, I blame STR on that typo. I'd correct it to "Taxation is not extortion". Its violence in the sense that it will require violence to operate. You can give it a pass, no biggie.

Originally posted by Oliver North

cool though, we don't have to talk about that either

in most instances, those words have different meanings to me.
[/b

You get the idea.

Originally posted by Oliver North
[B]well, sure, in the broadest terms we can say paying protection money to a gang is similar to paying taxes. I guess I hear you, but, not to just echo everyone else, if all you are saying is that we are forced to pay taxes, then, ok...

I'm say a lot more if you pay attention to anyone else I'm talking to. I'm trying to stick to what YOU are introducing to me in this conversation in replies to what I've just introduced.

Its destructive and counter productive for what the collective thinks its accomplishing.

Originally posted by Oliver North

like, I think the way you interpret the moral application of this is academic, but what do you want me to do, try to convince you that you don't feel the way you do about something?

I don't care what you do. Just don't hurt anyone 😉

Originally posted by Omega Vision
You'll forgive me if I call this a copout response, won't you?

Edit: I saw that, and I was pleasantly surprised, but you still come off as smug. And I know smugness because game recognizes game.

Sure because I have no clue what it would be a copout to. I've responded to everything. What am I copouting out of? lol

Yeah its a malfunction in the brain that self knowledge can aid. One day one day.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
I'm say a lot more if you pay attention to anyone else I'm talking to. I'm trying to stick to what YOU are introducing to me in this conversation in replies to what I've just introduced.

Its destructive and counter productive for what the collective thinks its accomplishing.

to be fair, the tract you have posted, twice, contains explicit reference to and pretends to be a critique of the social contract.

I assume I can be forgiven for thinking that is something we might discuss in the thread.

I suppose in the end I don't disagree enough with you about taxes...