Deathstroke comes to Marvel

Originally posted by namorsubby
You've never done that.what that would take is a comparison of every notable street levelers feats in both comic universes, showing a definitive edge to marvel. Its absurd that you make such completely unproven proclamations so boldly.

Actually, I've done it numerous times.

Marvel has larger, more diverse street level rooster than DC does, with a longer history and more prestige. Maybe "more prestige" isn't exactly right, but Marvel has managed to keep the entirety their character's history intact since their inception. Sure they have isolated retcons from time to time, but even before the Nu52-boot DC had decades worth of continuity that simply didn't happen. Hundreds, thousands appearances of characters that no longer mattered.

Street level characters in Marvel get more play than they do in DC; and those characters have more appearances than their DC counter parts do. Lets take a look at the numbers. These are from comicvine, they include a bunch of trades, and foreign language reprints in their numbering, so they aren't 100% accurate but close enough for our purposes.

Marvel Street Level Appearances:

Spider-man: 9675
Wolverine: 9789
Captain America: 6870
Daredevil: 2889
Black Panther: 1565
Deadpool 1248
Punisher: 1778
Iron Fist: 1381
Hawkeye: 2903
Winter Soldier: 1306
Black Widow: 1970
Elektra: 661
Nick Fury: 2837
Shang-Chi: 477
Moon Knight: 763
Gambit: 2936
Psylock: 2687

Total: 51735

DC Street Level Appearances:

Batman: 10097
Catwoman: 1339
Nightwing: 4322
Tim Drake: 1818
Jason Todd: 510
Lady Shiva: 141
Cassandra Cain: 347
Green Arrow: 2267
Barbra Gordon: 1723
Deathstroke: 621
Black Canary: 1882
Katana: 412
Huntress: 632
Arsenal: 1274
Wildcat: 894
Bronze Tiger: 192
Richard Dragon: 67

Total: 28538

That's a pretty significant difference between the two, and I was being generous to DC with some of those character inclusions. I left some notable Marvels off the list and I could start adding freaking White Tiger, The Daughters of the Dragon or Mockingbird based on the fame and quality of some of those DC "namesakes". Again - the Marvel characters don't have their continuity segmented by various large scale reboots. Ignoring alt realities and what ifs, all of those appearances for the Marvel characters still matter. The dearth of comic time DC streets get compared to their Marvel counter parts is big reason why DC streets don't stack up to Marvels... but it isn't the biggest.

The majority of Marvel's streets are super powered in some manner or another and their feats reflect that when compared side by side to their DC counter parts. Each character is also given the opportunity to shine independent of one another. No writer is worrying how what Captain America does might reflect on Punisher, or how Daredevil relates to Shang-Chi they are there own characters, their on franchises with no intrinsic tie to one another for the most part. In DC 90% of streets are part of the Batfamily.

DC's streets largely consists of Batman and a bunch Batman underlings and side characters. He is the anchor and focal point of the DC street level scene and ever other character is shackled to him in how they operate and what sort of feats the can accomplish. A Batman-governor regulating everyone's abilities, keeping everyone in line so the poster boy looks good. Marvel doesn't have that, and if it did, it would be Spider-man... which is obviously a much higher bar to work under.

Marvel's streets have more feats. They have better feats. Why? Because they have more appearances. More of their appearances are in continuity. The majoirty of them have superhuman abilities and physical attributes that allows them to operate on a higher level than the characters in DC do.

DC is the Batman show. In Marvel characters are allowed to exist on their own merit, and they do. It's all pretty elementary. Stronger, Faster, More skilled characters with more appearances. I mean... do the math.

People want to pretend that there is some sort of parity between the two companies on every level. There isn't. Why would there be? They have different goals and are run very differently. Marvel's street level roster, is deeper, more diverse, more powerful and most of all marketed more. That's not a bias, THAT'S AN OBJECTIVE FACT that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who even the SLIGHTEST interest in the comic medium. Why would DC streets be the equal of Marvels? It's mathematically improbable and - clearly - categorically untrue. Marvel publishes more street level comics than DC does, featuring more characters than DC does, those characters are more powerful than DC's characters are, and their character's histories are rebooted every two decades. I f@cking wonder, which company has the stronger street level characters? Who could it be? What a f@cking mystery!

Jesus Christ.

Feel free to try and rebut anything I've said.

He just got Knights of the TOLD Republic.

👆

Good job SRank

Really all you have to do to really see srank's point is look at the basic marketing strategy of both companies.

D.c.: powerful unique characters

Marvel: characters the reader can relate too

One lends to more herald level characters and a focus on that grouping, the other company targets more street and low meta characters with their stories.

so tell me, how does showing the amount of appearances support your stance that marvel streets have more impressive feats overall? It doesn't.Oh, and there are superhuman street levelers in DC, so try again. What would prove your stance is a feat comparison of such great magnitude that it seems unlikely to ever be done.

I say most street levelers display similar feats of relatively comparable impressiveness overall throughout both companies. With the elite, usually more well known characters having the best resumes.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Actually, I've done it numerous times.

Marvel has larger, more diverse street level rooster than DC does, with a longer history and more prestige. Maybe "more prestige" isn't exactly right, but Marvel has managed to keep the entirety their character's history intact since their inception. Sure they have isolated retcons from time to time, but even before the Nu52-boot DC had [b]decades worth of continuity that simply didn't happen. Hundreds, thousands appearances of characters that no longer mattered.

Street level characters in Marvel get more play than they do in DC; and those characters have more appearances than their DC counter parts do. Lets take a look at the numbers. These are from comicvine, they include a bunch of trades, and foreign language reprints in their numbering, so they aren't 100% accurate but close enough for our purposes.

Marvel Street Level Appearances:

Spider-man: 9675
Wolverine: 9789
Captain America: 6870
Daredevil: 2889
Black Panther: 1565
Deadpool 1248
Punisher: 1778
Iron Fist: 1381
Hawkeye: 2903
Winter Soldier: 1306
Black Widow: 1970
Elektra: 661
Nick Fury: 2837
Shang-Chi: 477
Moon Knight: 763
Gambit: 2936
Psylock: 2687

Total: 51735

DC Street Level Appearances:

Batman: 10097
Catwoman: 1339
Nightwing: 4322
Tim Drake: 1818
Jason Todd: 510
Lady Shiva: 141
Cassandra Cain: 347
Green Arrow: 2267
Barbra Gordon: 1723
Deathstroke: 621
Black Canary: 1882
Katana: 412
Huntress: 632
Arsenal: 1274
Wildcat: 894
Bronze Tiger: 192
Richard Dragon: 67

Total: 28538

That's a pretty significant difference between the two, and I was being generous to DC with some of those character inclusions. I left some notable Marvels off the list and I could start adding freaking White Tiger, The Daughters of the Dragon or Mockingbird based on the fame and quality of some of those DC "namesakes". Again - the Marvel characters don't have their continuity segmented by various large scale reboots. Ignoring alt realities and what ifs, all of those appearances for the Marvel characters still matter. The dearth of comic time DC streets get compared to their Marvel counter parts is big reason why DC streets don't stack up to Marvels... but it isn't the biggest.

The majority of Marvel's streets are super powered in some manner or another and their feats reflect that when compared side by side to their DC counter parts. Each character is also given the opportunity to shine independent of one another. No writer is worrying how what Captain America does might reflect on Punisher, or how Daredevil relates to Shang-Chi they are there own characters, their on franchises with no intrinsic tie to one another for the most part. In DC 90% of streets are part of the Batfamily.

DC's streets largely consists of Batman and a bunch Batman underlings and side characters. He is the anchor and focal point of the DC street level scene and ever other character is shackled to him in how they operate and what sort of feats the can accomplish. A Batman-governor regulating everyone's abilities, keeping everyone in line so the poster boy looks good. Marvel doesn't have that, and if it did, it would be Spider-man... which is obviously a much higher bar to work under.

Marvel's streets have more feats. They have better feats. Why? Because they have more appearances. More of their appearances are in continuity. The majoirty of them have superhuman abilities and physical attributes that allows them to operate on a higher level than the characters in DC do.

DC is the Batman show. In Marvel characters are allowed to exist on their own merit, and they do. It's all pretty elementary. Stronger, Faster, More skilled characters with more appearances. I mean... do the math.

People want to pretend that there is some sort of parity between the two companies on every level. There isn't. Why would there be? They have different goals and are run very differently. Marvel's street level roster, is deeper, more diverse, more powerful and most of all marketed more. That's not a bias, THAT'S AN OBJECTIVE FACT that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who even the SLIGHTEST interest in the comic medium. Why would DC streets be the equal of Marvels? It's mathematically improbable and - clearly - categorically untrue. Marvel publishes more street level comics than DC does, featuring more characters than DC does, those characters are more powerful than DC's characters are, and their character's histories are rebooted every two decades. I f@cking wonder, which company has the stronger street level characters? Who could it be? What a f@cking mystery!

Jesus Christ.

Feel free to try and rebut anything I've said. [/B]

That was a great read. Totally agree btw.

Originally posted by namorsubby
so tell me, how does showing the amount of appearances support your stance that marvel streets have more impressive feats overall? It doesn't.Oh, and there are superhuman street levelers in DC, so try again. What would prove your stance is a feat comparison of such great magnitude that it seems unlikely to ever be done.

I say most street levelers display similar feats of relatively comparable impressiveness overall throughout both companies. With the elite, usually more well known characters having the best resumes.

Assuming your not insane and your arguing preboot D.C. vs Current Marvel there is still an important part your missing.

The "Bat Effect" all Streets & low Metas lose to Batman, and sure you can make a very solid argument for Batman being the king of the peak humans but when you want to make an argument for there not being a skill gap between companies it leads directly to why can't X beat Batman...

Inb4 KK argument

This is the "Shiva Effect/John Cena Effect"

It's been years since he did really anything and him never losing to others doesn't make everyone who fights him look better, at best they appear exactly the same.

Ok, I'm ready for the hate.
🪩

DC has better/interesting streets, IMO. Bat family alone trashes most of Marvel's. 😛

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Actually, I've done it numerous times.

Marvel has larger, more diverse street level rooster than DC does, with a longer history and more prestige. Maybe "more prestige" isn't exactly right, but Marvel has managed to keep the entirety their character's history intact since their inception. Sure they have isolated retcons from time to time, but even before the Nu52-boot DC had [b]decades worth of continuity that simply didn't happen. Hundreds, thousands appearances of characters that no longer mattered.

Street level characters in Marvel get more play than they do in DC; and those characters have more appearances than their DC counter parts do. Lets take a look at the numbers. These are from comicvine, they include a bunch of trades, and foreign language reprints in their numbering, so they aren't 100% accurate but close enough for our purposes.

Marvel Street Level Appearances:

Spider-man: 9675
Wolverine: 9789
Captain America: 6870
Daredevil: 2889
Black Panther: 1565
Deadpool 1248
Punisher: 1778
Iron Fist: 1381
Hawkeye: 2903
Winter Soldier: 1306
Black Widow: 1970
Elektra: 661
Nick Fury: 2837
Shang-Chi: 477
Moon Knight: 763
Gambit: 2936
Psylock: 2687

Total: 51735

DC Street Level Appearances:

Batman: 10097
Catwoman: 1339
Nightwing: 4322
Tim Drake: 1818
Jason Todd: 510
Lady Shiva: 141
Cassandra Cain: 347
Green Arrow: 2267
Barbra Gordon: 1723
Deathstroke: 621
Black Canary: 1882
Katana: 412
Huntress: 632
Arsenal: 1274
Wildcat: 894
Bronze Tiger: 192
Richard Dragon: 67

Total: 28538

That's a pretty significant difference between the two, and I was being generous to DC with some of those character inclusions. I left some notable Marvels off the list and I could start adding freaking White Tiger, The Daughters of the Dragon or Mockingbird based on the fame and quality of some of those DC "namesakes". Again - the Marvel characters don't have their continuity segmented by various large scale reboots. Ignoring alt realities and what ifs, all of those appearances for the Marvel characters still matter. The dearth of comic time DC streets get compared to their Marvel counter parts is big reason why DC streets don't stack up to Marvels... but it isn't the biggest.

The majority of Marvel's streets are super powered in some manner or another and their feats reflect that when compared side by side to their DC counter parts. Each character is also given the opportunity to shine independent of one another. No writer is worrying how what Captain America does might reflect on Punisher, or how Daredevil relates to Shang-Chi they are there own characters, their on franchises with no intrinsic tie to one another for the most part. In DC 90% of streets are part of the Batfamily.

DC's streets largely consists of Batman and a bunch Batman underlings and side characters. He is the anchor and focal point of the DC street level scene and ever other character is shackled to him in how they operate and what sort of feats the can accomplish. A Batman-governor regulating everyone's abilities, keeping everyone in line so the poster boy looks good. Marvel doesn't have that, and if it did, it would be Spider-man... which is obviously a much higher bar to work under.

Marvel's streets have more feats. They have better feats. Why? Because they have more appearances. More of their appearances are in continuity. The majoirty of them have superhuman abilities and physical attributes that allows them to operate on a higher level than the characters in DC do.

DC is the Batman show. In Marvel characters are allowed to exist on their own merit, and they do. It's all pretty elementary. Stronger, Faster, More skilled characters with more appearances. I mean... do the math.

People want to pretend that there is some sort of parity between the two companies on every level. There isn't. Why would there be? They have different goals and are run very differently. Marvel's street level roster, is deeper, more diverse, more powerful and most of all marketed more. That's not a bias, THAT'S AN OBJECTIVE FACT that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who even the SLIGHTEST interest in the comic medium. Why would DC streets be the equal of Marvels? It's mathematically improbable and - clearly - categorically untrue. Marvel publishes more street level comics than DC does, featuring more characters than DC does, those characters are more powerful than DC's characters are, and their character's histories are rebooted every two decades. I f@cking wonder, which company has the stronger street level characters? Who could it be? What a f@cking mystery!

Jesus Christ.

Feel free to try and rebut anything I've said. [/B]

Currently, DC has more street level books than Marvel. Yes, most of them are related to Batman, but still. Green Arrow rocks, yeah?

Originally posted by Golgo13
DC has better/interesting streets, IMO. Bat family alone trashes most of Marvel's. 😛

Really? You talking pre flashpoint or new52?

Originally posted by SevenShackles
Really? You talking pre flashpoint or new52?

I like the Batman mythos. Whether it be Batman, Nightwing, Red Robin, Jason Todd, Cassandra Cain, Batwoman (Kate), etc... Strong lineup of characters.

I like Moon Knight, Daredevil, Wolverine (not really street, but I'll count him), and Elektra, but that's about it.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
You don't think there is a correlation between number of showing and number of feats?

Assuming your not insane and your arguing preboot D.C. vs Current Marvel there is still an important part your missing.

The "Bat Effect" all Streets & low Metas lose to Batman, and sure you can make a very solid argument for Batman being the king of the peak humans but when you want to make an argument for there not being a skill gap between companies it leads directly to why can't X beat Batman...

Inb4 KK argument

This is the "Shiva Effect/John Cena Effect"

It's been years since he did really anything and him never losing to others doesn't make everyone who fights him look better, at best they appear exactly the same.

Ok, I'm ready for the hate.
🪩

DCnU actually has had more street level/super soldier books than current Marvel. They actually have a perfect blend of magic, mystic, street, and space books. And more of those genres. IMO (and I have been following nu52 than most), the streets so far have been more impressive than the Pre-Flashpoint selves.

Originally posted by namorsubby
so tell me, how does showing the amount of appearances support your stance that marvel streets have more impressive feats overall? It doesn't.Oh, and there are superhuman street levelers in DC, so try again. What would prove your stance is a feat comparison of such great magnitude that it seems unlikely to ever be done.

I say most street levelers display similar feats of relatively comparable impressiveness overall throughout both companies. With the elite, usually more well known characters having the best resumes.

God you're obtuse.

Did you look at the numbers? We are talking about an 80% larger pool of street level comics to draw from. 80%! And that is before we start removing decades worth of retcon'd comics from the equation on the DC side. That's pretty significant. More appearances means more feats. More feats means statistically there is a greater chance of higher end feats occurring. That's the reason why Batman has better feats than every other street level character in DC. But number of appearances was only one of several points I made in my original post; and as I said in that post it isn't the post important reason.

Marvel's street level characters are super human. Obviously there are super human street level characters in DC - I listed several of them - but what's your point? How do a few outliers that address anything I wrote in my previous post? The focal point of DC street level is the Batman franchise. Just look at the list of DC streets, it's populated with peak human and Olympic level athletes. Now look at the Marvel one, where the majority of the characters are blatantly super human. That's the difference between the two companies. Marvel has a wider array of street level characters, and their street level characters have super powers.

Spider-man, Wolverine, Captain America, Black Panther, Deadpool, Daredevi, Iron Fist, Black Widow, Elektra, Shang-Chi, Psylock, and Gambit. All super human, most of them across the board superhuman. Winter Soldier is really the only peak human on the list... and he has superhuman robot arm. Of the DC characters listed which ones are superhuman? Deathstroke, Canary, Wildcat, and Katana? Only one of them - Deathstroke - has superhuman attributes. Canary has her scream, Wildcat has his nine lives and senses, and Katana has Soul Taker.

Super powered characters, with 80% more appearances to draw feats from. It's pretty easy to see who has the more powerful street level characters and why. It is statistically improbably that DC's street level characters, with significantly less data to draw from, would be the equal of Marvels. And that's just looking at the raw numbers. You need to take into account that the majority of Marvel's streets are super human, where as the majority of DC's streets are sub peak. What possible rational could lead someone to believe that physically inferior characters with less appearances, and less feats, would be the equal of their stronger, faster, more powerful counter parts with longer, more storied histories and significantly more appearances to draw from. It's completely illogical, and reeks of fanboy confirmation bias.

Batman is the best street in DC. The cream of the crop. The king of the hill. Sure, there are some characters who are slightly above him via peer review and anecdotal evidence, but he has - by far - the largest and most impressive collection of feats to his name. Batman's feats have been painstakingly compared to numerous Marvel street characters. As much as you try to ignore it, it has been shown pretty definitively - on numerous occasions - that Captain America (and he is just one example) has better than Batman... and Captain America isn't even the best street in Marvel. Any sort of consideration, or character feat analysis outside of that is irrelevant and unnecessary. That's not a knock on Batman, it's just the way things are. I'm not sure why any reasonable person would expect a different result, at the end of the day Batman is simply human. Spider-man is not. Captain America is not. Daredevil is not. Black Panther is not. Deadpool is not. Wolverine is not. And so on, and so on, and so on.

Outside of being a life time member of the Church of Batology and your stout, unwavering faith in face of logic and overwhelming evidence, what do you have that counters a single thing I've mentioned? You try to act like I'm bias and I have some anti-DC agenda, but just take a look at my posts. It's pretty clear that of the two of us I'm the only one that has actually given this matter any damn thought. My "opinion" on this matter, is the only possible conclusion anyone who has ever pondered this question with any sort of rational objectivity could possibly reach. It's logical and based on concrete evidence. It's science... but science is rarely enough to sway the illogical zealotry of faith and religion.

Keep worshiping at alter of Batman if you want, but your uneducated fanboy fervor is getting pretty old.

Comicvine also lists the italian reprints of Marvel comics, which adds a lot to the list of appearances 🙂

Originally posted by curryman
Comicvine also lists the italian reprints of Marvel comics, which adds a lot to the list of appearances 🙂

Thank you for not reading my post. I appreciate it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Thank you for not reading my post. I appreciate it.

I agree with your post.

But a lot of people are just gonna glance at it and see the inaccurate numbers.

Originally posted by curryman
I agree with your post.

But a lot of people are just gonna glance at it and see the inaccurate numbers.

I did state that the numbers include "a bunch of trades, and foreign language reprints in their numbering." Which is true for both DC and Marvel. /shrug

It's really annoying though, when you are trying to find an a specific issue and you have to navigate through trades and foreign reprints. Messy interface, should be able to remove that stuff from the list.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I did state that the numbers include "a bunch of trades, and foreign language reprints in their numbering." Which is true for both DC and Marvel. /shrug

It's really annoying though, when you are trying to find an a specific issue and you have to navigate through trades and foreign reprints. Messy interface, should be able to remove that stuff from the list.

Yeah, and they made the interface even less friendly the last years...

Originally posted by curryman
Yeah, and they made the interface even less friendly the last years...

It's super annoying.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
God you're obtuse.

Did you look at the numbers? We are talking about an 80% larger pool of street level comics to draw from. 80%! [b]And that is before we start removing decades worth of retcon'd comics from the equation on the DC side. That's pretty significant. More appearances means more feats. More feats means statistically there is a greater chance of higher end feats occurring. That's the reason why Batman has better feats than every other street level character in DC. But number of appearances was only one of several points I made in my original post; and as I said in that post it isn't the post important reason.

Marvel's street level characters are super human. Obviously there are super human street level characters in DC - I listed several of them - but what's your point? How do a few outliers that address anything I wrote in my previous post? The focal point of DC street level is the Batman franchise. Just look at the list of DC streets, it's populated with peak human and Olympic level athletes. Now look at the Marvel one, where the majority of the characters are blatantly super human. That's the difference between the two companies. Marvel has a wider array of street level characters, and their street level characters have super powers.

Spider-man, Wolverine, Captain America, Black Panther, Deadpool, Daredevi, Iron Fist, Black Widow, Elektra, Shang-Chi, Psylock, and Gambit. All super human, most of them across the board superhuman. Winter Soldier is really the only peak human on the list... and he has superhuman robot arm. Of the DC characters listed which ones are superhuman? Deathstroke, Canary, Wildcat, and Katana? Only one of them - Deathstroke - has superhuman attributes. Canary has her scream, Wildcat has his nine lives and senses, and Katana has Soul Taker.

Super powered characters, with 80% more appearances to draw feats from. It's pretty easy to see who has the more powerful street level characters and why. It is statistically improbably that DC's street level characters, with significantly less data to draw from, would be the equal of Marvels. And that's just looking at the raw numbers. You need to take into account that the majority of Marvel's streets are super human, where as the majority of DC's streets are sub peak. What possible rational could lead someone to believe that physically inferior characters with less appearances, and less feats, would be the equal of their stronger, faster, more powerful counter parts with longer, more storied histories and significantly more appearances to draw from. It's completely illogical, and reeks of fanboy confirmation bias.

Batman is the best street in DC. The cream of the crop. The king of the hill. Sure, there are some characters who are slightly above him via peer review and anecdotal evidence, but he has - by far - the largest and most impressive collection of feats to his name. Batman's feats have been painstakingly compared to numerous Marvel street characters. As much as you try to ignore it, it has been shown pretty definitively - on numerous occasions - that Captain America (and he is just one example) has better than Batman... and Captain America isn't even the best street in Marvel. Any sort of consideration, or character feat analysis outside of that is irrelevant and unnecessary. That's not a knock on Batman, it's just the way things are. I'm not sure why any reasonable person would expect a different result, at the end of the day Batman is simply human. Spider-man is not. Captain America is not. Daredevil is not. Black Panther is not. Deadpool is not. Wolverine is not. And so on, and so on, and so on.

Outside of being a life time member of the Church of Batology and your stout, unwavering faith in face of logic and overwhelming evidence, what do you have that counters a single thing I've mentioned? You try to act like I'm bias and I have some anti-DC agenda, but just take a look at my posts. It's pretty clear that of the two of us I'm the only one that has actually given this matter any damn thought. My "opinion" on this matter, is the only possible conclusion anyone who has ever pondered this question with any sort of rational objectivity could possibly reach. It's logical and based on concrete evidence. It's science... but science is rarely enough to sway the illogical zealotry of faith and religion.

Keep worshiping at alter of Batman if you want, but your uneducated fanboy fervor is getting pretty old. [/B]

There is absolutely no relation between the number of appearances a street level character has and how impressive his feats are, so just quit with that. And there are plenty superhuman street level characters in DC. Your list sucks. Really though it doesn't matter about being labeled superhuman. Dc peak humans perform "superhuman" feats routinely. Hell, Batman resume exceeds several metas in either company. And there are plenty dc streets capable of beating him. Bottom line here is you made the claim that marvel streets have better feats, but in no way came even remotely close to proving it. Showing that marvel characters have more appearances doesn't prove it. Your assertion that marvel had more superhuman streets is unproven.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Jesus is the son, and god is the father. The earth was made in seven days, its 5000 years old, and Dinosaurs never existed.

facepalm