If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pmArHBW9ns

Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

Matthew 7:17,18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit. Scriptures say that that is not possible. If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If God creates perfect works and souls, how can man not be perfect?

If perfect, why would we need salvation?

Regards
DL

because God gave man free will, and man decided to eat the fruit from the tree God had forbade them to.

We don't need salvation. But if you tell everyone that, humans will not try.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

No where does it say we were created perfect. 😄

Originally posted by dadudemon
No where does it say we were created perfect. 😄

I was going to say the same thing.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I was going to say the same thing.

Well, the logic goes, we were created innocent, not perfect. If we were perfect, we would have a perfect knowledge of god and evil and be godlike in physical form. One could also argue that we’d also have perfect “wisdom”, to boot.

There were two trees in the Garden:

Tree of Life

Tree of Knowledge

If both were eaten by Adam and Eve, they would have supposedly become gods…according to Lucifer’s temptation.
BUT! Even then, they still would not be "perfect." 😄 They'd possess a perfect knowledge of good and evil and have transcendent godlike bodies (which some suggest would be intangible spirits and others like Mormons think is a tangible body). But they'd still lack "wisdom" which would require a third tree. This is one of teachings regarding Lucifer: he said they'd become like God if they ate the fruit but it was a lie because no third "wisdom" tree existed. It can be seen as the folly of the “quick and easy path” and then you see what George Lucas was on about with his “dark side” stuff…typical Buddhist-Christian stuff.

So, no, no stretch of the Adam and Eve allegory would ever lead someone to reasonably conclude that humans were created perfect or could even become perfect if they ate all dem fruits.

Spoiler:
Longest response ever to just say "cool, we had the same idea!"

God is an all powerful being.right?

Omnipotent
Omnipresent
Omniscient

Meaning hes all powerful, exists everywhere simultaneously, and sees everything.

Therefore he knew without a doubt the choice adam and would make considering he was there (omnipresent), already knew a snake was in the garden. Saw the event in its entirety before it ever happened(omniscient). Though chose to let it happen and get emotional about...

So in short ,god does not in my opinion exist for such idiotic reasoning.

It said" his work is perfect."
Unless you don't believe we are gods work

No no you misunderstand.

We're the product of the ninth dimension. The pre-God. God has gained omniscience, but he had to not have omniscience to gain it. In every single possible universe that has space, energy, and duration - consciousness emerges.

Lets say that when a universe ends, another one pops up somewhere in an endless cycle all inside of an indeterminate place without space or time. All universes will end, and all universes will begin. But mainly, they'll end.

Therefore: Everyone who has ever died has experienced the multi-big crunch at the time of their termination. It occurred at an indeterminate point in time and therefore happened when the very same existence, a conscious intelligence, that was engaged in experiencing existence stopped experiencing it and, effectively, died. This is reminiscent of the quantum observer effect. Reality differs depending on which part of reality is experiencing itself, ergo; the part of reality that is you will have a different effect on itself than the part of reality that is me.

The hyper-singularity that comes out of the multi-big crunch will be God in preparation to distill, for the first and last time, a physical form using the data that He’s currently gathering by observing us. We’re the life-forms on the outskirts of reality. Having witnessed the aggregate of our joy and suffering throughout an unfathomable number of existences, God the Father will know Himself. In order to create a structured and ordered system for us to inhabit – with God being present within us to perceive through us through the Holy Spirit - the chaotic system we’re in so that He has something to cross-reference and, subsequently, base an ordered system off of. Every step of the way, when we’re forced to face the cruelty of our flawed existences, He will be there to reassure us. The Holy Spirit will be within us always and, when we stray from His path in mass, we’ll be put back on track by His begotten Son, the redeemer, in incremental cycles of creation and destruction. This hyper-singularity will birth, within God, the final creation: A super-cosmos of pure love and happiness for all living things ever touched by the Holy Spirit to experience for all eternity, free from the cycles of life and death. The paradisiacal super-cosmos He spawns could be thought of as the tenth dimension. The multiverse is like the ninth dimension, it exists to solve for what-ifs within infinite possible realities, a possible reality ends, which begins a different possible reality. Once it understands all possible realities upon observing itself through a non-temporal viewpoint, reality’s possibility is validated because if everything is possible, than nothing is impossible. At that point the ninth dimension looses its purpose, and dies. In its place the tenth dimension emerges.

God is infinite unselected realities selected and collapsed into one that encompasses all the best possibilities. But those unselected possibilities had to happen for there to be something to be select from. Suffering is the product of infinity. Good doesn't exist without bad, because there's nothing to compare good to, it just isn't there. The problem with perfectness is the paradox. There has to be imperfection somewhere for there to be perfection. No one is going to Hell, its not a real place in the tenth dimension because only good things are selected and happen there.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, the logic goes, we were created innocent, not perfect. If we were perfect, we would have a perfect knowledge of god and evil and be godlike in physical form. One could also argue that we’d also have perfect “wisdom”, to boot.

And the metaphoric event happened and was true. Satan was unwittingly being genuine. They ate the apples, and for the rest of eternity both them and their descendants would learn infinite bad things and infinite good things and, collectively, these infinite but temporary sentient minds living a unique life infinite times form an aggregate sentience that knows every good and every evil, and it will choose to experience good.

So were the leftovers of collapsed dimensions and god is the new god here to relearn about us and reassure us of his holiness and ummm
where did you get thie tid bit of 9th dimensional wisdom

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
So were the leftovers of collapsed dimensions and god is the new god here to relearn about us and reassure us of his holiness and ummm
where did you get thie tid bit of 9th dimensional wisdom

We're not leftovers of collapsed dimensions. We're in one reality where things are the way they are, where there's a such thing as humans and gravity. One of infinite im/possible realities that are born and die. When you collapse that infinity, you get one existence that is something you, me, everyone else would want.

There's a paradox, if something is perfect, than there must be an imperfection to compare that to. How can a He know Himself if He's never experienced Himself? That's why we're here in an endless cycle of life and death, providing infinite data; to form a collective experience that's as infinite as Him.

Somewhere out there exists a reality we can all agree on. One we all find awesome, one we all find "perfect". In fact, there's infinity of them. When dealing with infinity, complex concepts like this emerge. All our existences will converge into one perfect one.

Originally posted by Dolos
We're not leftovers of collapsed dimensions. We're in one reality where things are the way they are, where there's a such thing as humans and gravity. One of infinite im/possible realities that are born and die. When you collapse that infinity, you get one existence that is something you, me, everyone else would want.

There's a paradox, if something is perfect, than there must be an imperfection to compare that to. How can a He know Himself if He's never experienced Himself? That's why we're here in an endless cycle of life and death, providing infinite data; to form a collective experience that's as infinite as Him.

What do these Bible verses mean to you?

Psalm 53:1
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; There is none who does good.

Romans 1:21
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

2 Timothy 3:7
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583890&pagenumber=2#post14440165

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14448304#post14448304

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
What do these Bible verses mean to you?

[B]Psalm 53:1
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; There is none who does good.

Romans 1:21
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

2 Timothy 3:7
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583890&pagenumber=2#post14440165

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14448304#post14448304 [/B]

Out of the three Second Timothy stood out the most for what I was saying. Always learning, never coming to the truth. It's exactly that, there are infinite things to learn, you'll never know everything until you achieve His infinite perspective. Never implies duration, when an existence or God stops experiencing, at that instant aggregate reality ends at no specific point in time at no specific location in space; duration stops, reality ends, and it's replaced by a different kind of perspective outside of the mad chaos of infinity. It's the realization of the delusion of oneself as being outside of God, we'd be forced to give up the facade of individuality. We're all touched by the Holy Spirit, which is the way in which God is able to be in all places and times at once.

http://www.asitis.com/11/

Originally posted by Dolos
Out of the three Second Timothy stood out the most for what I was saying. Always learning, never coming to the truth. It's exactly that, there are infinite things to learn, you'll never know everything until you achieve His infinite perspective. Never implies duration, when an existence or God stops experiencing, at that instant aggregate reality ends at no specific point in time at no specific location, it's replaced by God outside of the mad chaos of infinity. It's the realization of the delusion of oneself as being outside of God, we'd be forced to give up the facade of individuality. We're all touched by the Holy Spirit, which is the way in which God is able to be in all places and times at once.

http://www.asitis.com/11/

Do you believe that you have come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ (i.e. the Truth)?

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583890&pagenumber=2#post14440165

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14448304#post14448304

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Do you believe that you have come to a knowledge of [b]Jesus Christ (i.e. the Truth)?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583890&pagenumber=2#post14440165

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14448304#post14448304 [/B]

I believe no one has, but every one is trying. Everything is meant to be the way it is. What I do, what you do, has its purpose in making manifest the glory of God. They're functions. When it's all over, when all purposes are met, everyone will be happy as one because in that rapture the truth will be revealed.

Originally posted by Dolos
No.

I believe no one has, but every one is trying. Everything is meant to be the way it is. What I do, what you do, has its purpose in making manifest the glory of God. They're functions. When its all over, when all purposes are met, everyone will be happy as one.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583162&pagenumber=1#post14448506

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583162&pagenumber=1#post14448506

But what is sin? Sin is something we can't avoid, but in trying, in continually working against it as opposed to accepting it brings about positive evolution. Without that effort, Jesus can't save us, because he cannot come about. Without evolution, consciousness cannot continue to emerge and be apart of the equation long enough to gain an infinite perspective. What is sin without a lack thereof? We get to the same issue as perfection. Sin is everywhere, and no where. Therefore it doesn't exist without a lack thereof. Now you have to apply that to the concept of infinity, the paradoxical concept that God represents. There must be infinite sin and an infinite lack thereof.