Fight with Palpatine

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It only works if the greatness of those three masters had been established previously.

Yup!

Lucas did not do that on film because it was done in other media (Clone Wars Cartoon).

He did this on purpose so there would be stuff for other people to do...because he wanted to make money.

That's what this boils down to. And I just pointed out the ugly pink elephant in the room.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yup!

Lucas did not do that on film because it was done in other media (Clone Wars Cartoon).

He did this on purpose so there would be stuff for other people to do...because he wanted to make money.

That's what this boils down to. And I just pointed out the ugly pink elephant in the room.

wait... so you guessed that GL intentionally screwed up character developement to promote a cartoon...and then assumed thats what everyone was thinking?

Originally posted by focus4chumps
wait... so you guessed that GL intentionally screwed up character developement to promote a cartoon

Nope.

In a project planning phase, he specified what would be covered in other media (but did not know who was license it and develop it). It literally boiled down to, many times, as a conversation and sign-off in a board room. It would be a group of people, "marketing" ideas and settling on them. Most likely, when Kit Fisto was created, it was with the idea in mind that some other group, out there, would develop that character in another area besides the films. GL had no idea, when they settled on doing this for some of those characters, that Cartoon Network (Turner Broadcasting) would be the group that licensed and fleshed out Kit' character. However, that was the plan and Turner Broadcasting only fulfilled what they had planned to do.

You need to stop thinking like a fan and think more like businessman to understand how things went down (it happened, though not nearly to the degree as it did the PT, with the OT, as well). This is the massive Marketing Machine that is Lucasfilm. This is how they do, baby.

Edit - Let's not forget that Kit made lots of licensed appearances in other media besides the movies. He made quite a bit of money. 🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nope.

In a project planning phase, he specified what would be covered in other media (but did not know who was license it and develop it). It literally boiled down to, many times, as a conversation and sign-off in a board room. It would be a group of people, "marketing" ideas and settling on them. Most likely, when Kit Fisto was created, it was with the idea in mind that some other group, out there, would develop that character in another area besides the films. GL had no idea, when they settled on doing this for some of those characters, that Cartoon Network (Turner Broadcasting) would be the group that licensed and fleshed out Kit' character. However, that was the plan and Turner Broadcasting only fulfilled what they had planned to do.

You need to stop thinking like a fan and think more like businessman to understand how things went down (it happened, though not nearly to the degree as it did the PT, with the OT, as well). This is the massive Marketing Machine that is Lucasfilm. This is how they do, baby.

Edit - Let's not forget that Kit made lots of licensed appearances in other media besides the movies. He made quite a bit of money. 🙂

But that doesn't suddenly make the film itself any better. Movies are judged as movies, what they alone bring to the table. I don't want to have to do research before I go to the theaters just because the movie won't make sense otherwise. "It's explained in the novel/cartoon" isn't a valid excuse for missing information in the film. The Harry Potter films didn't ask me to read the books before they left out the Horcruxes, and Lord of the Rings didn't ask me to read the books before they gave Eomer any characterization. Films need to stand alone, independent of their source material. How many people do you think even knew of the existence of the cartoon before they went to see RotS? I know people today who have seen the movies plenty but never heard of the cartoon before I told them.

If a character is totally devoid of character (like Kolar, Fisto, and Tiin), that's not the viewer's fault for not watching the prerequisite cartoon. I can't fathom how you could think it is. None of us here are in the dark as to Lucas' reasoning from a business point of view. But understanding where he's coming from doesn't magically make his terrible movies any better.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
All of that makes sense from a marketing perspective.

But that doesn't suddenly make the film itself any better.

It doesn't and, in fact, it is one of my complaints about the PT. If you view the PT as a massive money making machine/ploy, it starts to get depressing, very quickly. The same can be said of the OT but not nearly as bad a the PT. Maybe that's what the PT suffered from, the most compared to the OT: marketing ploys.

So while some cry "plothole!", I call most of those for what they are: greedy boardroom deals.

You want Kit's story? Go read the comics, the books, and watch the cartoons. uhuh

Originally posted by dadudemon
It doesn't and, in fact, it is one of my complaints about the PT. If you view the PT as a massive money making machine/ploy, it starts to get depressing, very quickly. The same can be said of the OT but not nearly as bad a the PT. Maybe that's what the PT suffered from, the most compared to the OT: marketing ploys.

So while some cry "plothole!", I call most of those for what they are: greedy boardroom deals.

You want Kit's story? Go read the comics, the books, and watch the cartoons. uhuh

I think you're all applying too much Machiavellian intelligence motives behind Lucas's work. On a fundamental level, he seems like a decent guy. Like, he plans to use the 4 billion he got from the deal with Disney to fund education, or something.

And remember that, if he truly made the PT just to get the cash flowing, he'd have inserted Han Solo and the Millenium Falcon somewhere, for the toys.

True. Lucas is seems like a genuinely nice guy. He knows how to market his product though, and the 2003 cartoon was great for building up EP. III. It was also good as a story and character vessel, so he obviously had nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Being a greedy boardroom deal doesn't stop them from being plotholes.

It does since they are not plotholes: your answers exist in an officially licensed capacity in another media format. 😐

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The entire prequel trilogy is a greedy boardroom deal,

Yup. Pretty much.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
the plotholes are just the byproduct. I'm okay with something being a shameless money grab so long as it's still entertaining and fun to watch. The prequels are from that. Plotholes are just one of the problems inherent to these films,

That's a massive difference between you and I: the PT movies are immensely entertaining and all 3 movies had great stories.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
but in regards to the three Jedi masters, it's to do with utter lack of character or personality. That's not a plot hole, that's the pinnacle of lazy writing.

I disagree. For me, it screams greed, not lazy writing. GL is far from a lazy writer.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
True. Lucas is seems like a genuinely nice guy. He knows how to market his product though, and the 2003 cartoon was great for building up EP. III. It was also good as a story and character vessel, so he obviously had nothing to do with it.

😆 😆 😆

Well played...SoB. uhuh

I watched an episode of the Clone Wars cartoon, recently, on a nice surround sound system. Though the DVD is not 5.1, it was still a supreme accomplishment in sound effects and sound editing, imo. It was just beautiful. It is jaw dropping at some points in the show.

MMMMMAAAAAAAN, if the PT movies were presented as well as the cartoon (the powers, abilities, story-type (how the stories were done and progressed...you know..."dat feel"...that je ne sais quoi), sound and sound editing) mixed in with some top-notch John Williams (but still live action), I dare say we would have the best trilogy, hands down, of all time.

Edit - Looks like I own the 5.1 version because I bought the Special Edition.

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Clone-Volume-Two/dp/B000BCE8Q4/ref=pd_bxgy_mov_img_y

Maybe that's why it sounded so wonderfully (or part of it).

I'm not a big fan of the CGI series, but it did have its moments. The 4th and 5th seasons especially had some very well done episodes that really focused on the characters and gave them some depth. Pretty much any arc in the series was good. I just wish the whole show had been done as one large arc instead of episodic.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It does since they are not plotholes: your answers exist in an officially licensed capacity in another media format. 😐

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm not a big fan of the CGI series, but it did have its moments.

I have not seen a single episode of the CGI series. I'm referring to the 2003 cartoon.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That may be good enough for you and George Lucas, but for me and most other movie goers, the movies themselves must stand alone and deserve to be judged by their own merits, not the orbiting material derived from it. "explained in another medium" is not a solution.

Obviously, I am not referring to the "orbiting materials" but the movies themselves. 😐

Originally posted by dadudemon
I have not seen a single episode of the CGI series. I'm referring to the 2003 cartoon.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Obviously, I am not referring to the "orbiting materials" but the movies themselves. 😐

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So what did you mean by "another media format"?

I was referring to this portion of the very same post you were quotting in that reply:

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's a massive difference between you and I: the PT movies are immensely entertaining and all 3 movies had great stories.

I'll be honest I'm not entirely sure what we're talking about.

This argument has become senseless. Bring things back to the topic, please, or leave it be.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'll be honest I'm not entirely sure what we're talking about.

This happens a lot with text based discussions. It is not very friendly for a conversation that would take just 20 seconds to have in the real world.

I'll recap:

You said:

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
...the plotholes are just the byproduct. I'm okay with something being a shameless money grab so long as it's still entertaining and fun to watch. The prequels are from that. Plotholes are just one of the problems inherent to these films...

To which I replied:

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's a massive difference between you and I: the PT movies are immensely entertaining and all 3 movies had great stories.

To which you said:

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So what did you mean by "another media format"?

To which I replied:

Originally posted by dadudemon
I was referring to this portion of the very same post you were quotting in that reply:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dadudemon
That's a massive difference between you and I: the PT movies are immensely entertaining and all 3 movies had great stories.

To put it another way, your complaint about the plotholes is irrelevent to my enjoyment of the film. I don't need the other media formats as I clearly and thoroughly enjoyed the PT just fine. In fact, I have not read any of the Kit comic books. The only other exposure I have of Kit outside RotS is th Clone Wars Cartoon (not the CGI one). I also think the PT stories are great even with the intentional plotholes that were created from greed.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
This argument has become senseless. Bring things back to the topic, please, or leave it be.

I really don't think we are arguing or even debating.

There was clearly some information lost in translation at some point so I clarified. This is pretty much tangentially related to Palpatine's slaying of Kit. Why was he killed with little to no love from the story?

Your summary of the discussion isn't accurate and just confuses even more.

I don't want any more posts here that don't directly advance the topic.

Well the topic is about the fight with Palpatine and WTF was up with the shittiness of Mace's buddies. They're justified in the cartoons and comics etc., but given that this is the PT forum, those don't apply. So judging the movie solely as the movie (which is how any film should be judged, regardless of franchise), there's a massive emotional and character hole--but not a plot hole as there's no inconsistency in story. The Three Stooges Palpatine cut down were never given even a semblance of characterization, so Palps killing them doesn't demonstrate his superiority over three Jedi Masters, it demonstrates his ability to kill unnamed, dialogue-less, character-less, personality-less walking props. The fact that the EU is required to explain these three is pathetic on the movie's part.

That's actually an odd quirk I've noticed about the franchise; most of the EU novels that expand on the OT characters always fall flat to me. They're trying to recreate the emotions and characters of the original films, but no text-based follow-ups for those characters can successfully do that, and it's rather palpable. All the EU material for the prequels on the other hand are surprisingly entertaining and enjoyable. The films they're based off of have so little in regards to... anything at all resembling substance that absolutely any amount that the novels can give is a huge boost. It's why novels like Cloak of Deception or Dark Rendezvous are so much better than nearly anything post-RotJ.

you don't think Palpatine could have been using the force slow technique or something similar to weaken the others. I remember something about the in a book that a Force user was able to slow down the attacks of other like they were moving through mud or water and take advantage in a duel. maybe Mace and Fisto lasted longer because one wasn't affected and the other wasn't affected as much