Meta-Coolers are boss. If one isn't strong enough to be completely immune, they'll eventually overwhelm pretty much any fighter.
Heck, I'm not sure that a SSJ2 could manage, let alone a FPSSJ!
And just to clarify my stance once more: I don't think a single Meta-Cooler could deal much damage to Goku at all. In fact, he might even be able to tank the first few dozen(or so) blows without so much as a scuff on his skin to show for it.
Additionally, there is the possibility of combo attacks.
Originally posted by Galan007
But again: hundreds/thousands of FTL blows from beings who are no less than equal to Android 17, would add up eventually, imo-- especially when you consider how fast said attacks could logically be delivered, given the speed of this match. For all Goku's power, he does not possess unlimited durability or stamina. He could still absolutely win, but I think it'd be one hell of a fight, regardless.
FTL blows?
No DBZ character is faster than light. Unless if you're referring to IT, in which case it's not as if they can all replicate such a tactic on him; not only can Goku move too fast for them to possibly lock onto his chi (given that Tien couldn't even track his movements while he was suppressed against Cell), but there's only a limited amount of coolers that can attack him at once before they run out of space, and after they do so, they can't IT away before Goku kills them, possibly with an omnidirectional energy field. And given that even a 150% difference in power level is enough for the weaker's attacks to be entirely ineffective to any degree whatsoever (ie., SSJ Goku vs. 50% Frieza), it seems unlikely that the coolers can do anything to Goku, especially a FPSSJ Goku with specifically efficient stamina reserves.
As a last resort, Goku can always resort to massive ki blasts that wipe out entire swaths of the army.
Originally posted by Master HanYes, IT.
FTL blows?No DBZ character is faster than light. Unless if you're referring to IT, in which case it's not as if they can all replicate such a tactic on him; not only can Goku move too fast for them to possibly lock onto his chi (given that Tien couldn't even track his movements while he was suppressed against Cell), but there's only a limited amount of coolers that can attack him at once before they run out of space, and after they do so, they can't IT away before Goku kills them, possibly with an omnidirectional energy field. And given that even a 150% difference in power level is enough for the weaker's attacks to be entirely ineffective to any degree whatsoever (ie., SSJ Goku vs. 50% Frieza), it seems unlikely that the coolers can do anything to Goku, especially a FPSSJ Goku with specifically efficient stamina reserves.
Goku cannot move faster than the Coolers-- IT makes their speed equal.
Like I've said several times now: while in 'IT mode', Goku can only defend against so many attacks at the same time-- 1,000 Meta-Coolers IT'ing around the field simultaneously makes it possible, and moreover probable, for Goku to get cheap-shotted by several Coolers from behind, as he is defending against/attacking several Coolers head-on. I believe this type of damage could add up as the battle progresses.
We've seen weaker characters cause some sort of damage to stronger characters in the past. SSJ2 Vegeta blew Kid Buu in half. Piccolo and Krillin harmed Nappa to an extent. Vegeta injured Recoom to an extent. SSJ Vegeta injured #18 to an extent. Etc. It can happen.
Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, though SSJ2 Gohan is far, far, FAR stronger than the Meta-Cooler army, I do wonder how he'd bridge the [vast] speed-gap between he and the Coolers? Omnidirectional attack, perhaps?
Wait for them to IT in and counterattack, I'd think.
Omnidirectional, it's not very concentrated, actual kills'd likely be quite light except for ones very close, but it'd be a defensive measure.
Master HanAs a last resort, Goku can always resort to massive ki blasts that wipe out entire swaths of the army.
But spread out attacks may not be enough to destroy them completely! Not from a FP SSJ.
And more concentrated ones mean other Metal Coolers will be attacking him from the back and sides while he does so.
Swarm and overwhelm is the big problem here.
Originally posted by Galan007
[B]Yes, IT.Goku cannot move faster than the Coolers-- IT makes their speed equal.
Like I've said several times now: while in 'IT mode', Goku can only defend against so many attacks at the same time-- 1,000 Meta-Coolers IT'ing around the field simultaneously makes it possible, and moreover probable, for Goku to get cheap-shotted by several Coolers from behind, as he is defending against/attacking several Coolers head-on. I believe this type of damage could add up as the battle progresses.
There's a reason why this tactic isn't consistently used by every character with IT in combat. Whilst the actual teleportation may be (effectively) instantaneous, there is a delay in reaction time between deciding to use the technique, locking onto a target and then initiating teleportation, at which point Goku could rip said hesitating Cooler to shreds. And once a Cooler teleports onto Goku (assuming he could even get a lock-on against one likely moving too fast for him to see) and hits him, he wouldn't be fast enough to move away before Goku flings his fist through his head, and possibly wouldn't even be fast enough to hit Kakarot, since there would be a delay between exiting teleportation and moving one's fist to impact.
We've seen weaker characters cause some sort of damage to stronger characters in the past. SSJ2 Vegeta blew Kid Buu in half. Piccolo and Krillin harmed Nappa to an extent. Vegeta injured Recoom to an extent. SSJ Vegeta injured #18 to an extent. Etc. It can happen.
Your buu example doesn't really work, since bullets penetrated super buu; the villain just has soft, albeit regenerative, skin.
And all your examples involve power gaps significantly smaller than that between Goku and a meta cooler here.
Originally posted by Master HanDid you watch the movie? There was no delay once they started IT'ing.
There's a reason why this tactic isn't consistently used by every character with IT in combat. Whilst the actual teleportation may be (effectively) instantaneous, there is a delay in reaction time between deciding to use the technique, locking onto a target and then initiating teleportation
Originally posted by Galan007
Did you watch the movie? There was no delay once they started IT'ing.
If there were no delay between one IT and another, they'd be moving, without pausing, at effectively instantaneous velocities. They...weren't. 😉 They IT one place, then there's a delay between one IT and another. Otherwise, any IT combatant would unconditionally defeat any non-IT combatant almost casually.
Originally posted by Master HanDuring the Saiyan Saga, Krillin had a PL of roughly 1,700. Nappa had a PL of 4,000. Despite Nappa being over 130% more powerful, Krillin was still able to harm him to an extent.
And all your examples involve power gaps significantly smaller than that between Goku and a meta cooler here.
Weaker characters harming stronger characters can and has happened.
Originally posted by Master HanGoku isn't blitzing 1,000 Coolers before they all begin to IT. He's never blitzed in such a way. That said, once the Coolers begin IT'ing, the only way for Goku to see them is by IT'ing himself.
If there were no delay between one IT and another, they'd be moving, without pausing, at effectively instantaneous velocities. They...weren't. 😉 They IT one place, then there's a delay between one IT and another. Otherwise, any IT combatant would unconditionally defeat any non-IT combatant almost casually.
Originally posted by Galan007
During the Saiyan Saga, Chiaotzu had a PL of 610. Nappa had a PL of 4,000. Despite Nappa being over 500% more powerful, Chiaotzu was still able to harm him to an extent when he detonated.Weaker characters harming stronger characters can and has happened.
Chiaotzu used a kamikaze attack; he wasn't hurting Nappa with his punches or ki blasts. From what I recall, there's no evidence that the coolers can do the same; and even then, Goku has a far wider skillset than Nappa and could probably defend himself with an energy shield of some sort. Indeed, all of your examples involve suicides and/or charged attacks that Goku, whose chargers Goku could detect and quickly eliminate.
In terms of punches or ki blasts, none of the coolers are even tickling Goku.
Originally posted by Galan007
Goku isn't blitzing 1,000 Coolers before they all begin to IT. He's never blitzed in such a way. That said, once the Coolers begin IT'ing, the only way for Goku to see them is by IT'ing himself.
No, again: the cooler IT onto a ki source, be it Goku's location or another cooler's, they reappear, and then there's a delay between their locking onto another ki source and initiating the technique.
The actual IT is (effectively) instantaneous; that doesn't mean there's no transitional period.
Originally posted by Master HanDBZ history proves you wrong.
In terms of punches or ki blasts, none of the coolers are even tickling Goku.
I gave you multiple examples of weaker character harming stronger characters-- most of which involved physical attacks. Ignoring them doesn't change the fact that they still happened.
Yet another example is SSJ2 Majin Vegeta harming Fat Buu to an extent with a mixture of punches/blasts-- Buu even commented that Vegeta's melee "hurt a bit." And the difference between Majin Vegeta and Fat Buu was vast.
Weaker characters harming stronger characters has happened in every single DBZ saga. If Majin Vegeta can harm Fat Buu, attacks from an army of Meta-Coolers can harm FPSSJ Goku.
Originally posted by Master Han1,000 Coolers would be locking onto the same ki source(Goku) simultaneously. I don't think you're getting that.
No, again: the cooler IT onto a ki source, be it Goku's location or another cooler's, they reappear, and then there's a delay between their locking onto another ki source and initiating the technique.The actual IT is (effectively) instantaneous; that doesn't mean there's no transitional period.
Originally posted by Galan007
DBZ history proves you wrong.I gave you multiple examples of weaker character harming stronger characters-- most of which involved physical attacks. Ignoring them doesn't change the fact that they still happened.
Yet another example is SSJ2 Majin Vegeta harming Fat Buu to an extent with a mixture of punches/blasts-- Buu even commented that his melee "hurt a bit." And the difference between Majin Vegeta and Fat Buu was vast.
Weaker characters harming stronger characters has happened in every single DBZ saga. If Majin Vegeta can harm Fat Buu, attacks from an army of Meta-Cooler can harm FPSSJ Goku.
All your examples involved charged attacks and/or suicides. For your new one, the gap between SSJ2 Vegeta and Fat Buu doesn't remotely compare with the gap between meta cooler and post-ROSAT Goku. It can't, because we see that a 150% gap in power makes one utterly untouchable to all but the absolute deadliest attacks (SSJ Goku vs 50% Frieza, SSJ2 Gohan vs FP Cell...if you wish to include anime, SSJ Gogeta vs Janemba, etc.)
Originally posted by Master HanYou obviously don't know what you're talking about then, because the only example I gave that involved a suicide was the Chiaotzu reference. Either way, a weaker character has harmed a stronger character with standard attacks in every single DBZ saga.
All your examples involved charged attacks and/or suicides. For your new one, the gap between SSJ2 Vegeta and Fat Buu doesn't remotely compare with the gap between meta cooler and post-ROSAT Goku. It can't, because we see that a 150% gap in power makes one utterly untouchable to all but the absolute deadliest attacks (SSJ Goku vs 50% Frieza, SSJ2 Gohan vs FP Cell...if you wish to include anime, SSJ Gogeta vs Janemba, etc.)
Siayan Saga:
Piccolo and Krillian's punches harm Nappa to an extent.
Frieza saga:
Vegeta's punches harm Recoom to an extent.
Android saga:
SSJ Vegeta's punches harm #18 to an extent.
Cell saga:
ASSJ Vegeta's blast harms Super-Perfect Cell to an extent.
Buu saga:
Majin Vegeta's blows harm Fat Buu to an extent.
Etc. Etc.
Again, you may not like it, but it has happened. Also, your "150% gap in power makes you immune to your opponent" logic has been proven extremely wrong.
Fat Buu's power was near SSJ3 levels. A SSJ3 is 4x more powerful than a SSJ2. Yet despite being nearly 400% less powerful than Fat Buu, Majin Vegeta's punches and standard blasts were still able to harm Buu a bit-- Buu himself explicitly stated this.
We also saw ASSJ Vegeta's cheap-shot blast harm Super-Perfect Cell to an extent. Super-Perfect Cell=~SSJ2 Gohan. A SSJ2 is 2x more powerful than a FPSSJ, which means it was even more powerful than Vegeta, given that he was only an ASSJ, not a FPSSJ... Yet his cheap-shot blast(of which the Coolers would be delivering en masse here) was capable of harming Cell, despite no less than a 200% gap in power existing between them.
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Now, if we want to bring up suicide attacks, then I'll mention Imperfect Cell's 'world busting' detonation KILLING FPSSJ Goku. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
[B]You obviously don't know what you're talking about then, because the only example I gave that involved a suicide was the Chiaotzu reference.
Correct...hence why I used "and/or". 😕
Siayan Saga:
Piccolo and Krillian's punches harm Nappa to an extent.
Frieza saga:
Vegeta's punches harm Recoom to an extent.
Android saga:
SSJ Vegeta's punches harm #18 to an extent.
Cell saga:
ASSJ Vegeta's blast harms Super-Perfect Cell to an extent.
Buu saga:
Majin Vegeta's blows harm Fat Buu to an extent.
Etc. Etc.
None of these involve even remotely a power gap on the level of FPSSJ Goku and meta cooler, with the possible exception of ASSJ Vegeta, whose blast caught Cell by surprise, and hardly seemed to "hurt" him as much as shock and stun him.
Again, you may not like it, but it has happened. Also, your "150% gap in power makes you immune to your opponent" logic has been proven extremely wrong.
So then why couldn't Frieza even make SSJ Goku blink? 😉
Fat Buu's power was near SSJ3 levels. A SSJ3 is 4x more powerful than a SSJ2. But despite being nearly 400% less powerful than Fat Buu, Majin Vegeta's punches and standard blasts were still able to harm Buu a bit-- Buu himself explicitly stated this.
400% may still be a smaller gap. 50% FPSSJ Goku > ASSJ Vegeta (first ROSAT) >> semi perfect Cell >>>> android 16 (who couldn't even phase him with a punch to the face) >>> android 17 ~ meta cooler.
Furthermore, to my knowledge fat buu was hurt by Vegeta when the former was suppressed. Hence why Vegeta thought he could defeat him.
Now, if we want to bring up suicide attacks, then I'll mention Imperfect Cell's 'world busting' detonation KILLING FPSSJ Goku. 🙂
And again, suicide attacks won't work here. Goku has no planet to save, and no long speech to give.
Originally posted by Master HanPlot.
So then why couldn't Frieza even make SSJ Goku blink? 😉
Akira was introducing the long awaited Super Saiyan for the first time!! He going to make him look as uber as possible.
Originally posted by Master HanHard to say, as we'd have to know what their specific PL's were.
400% may still be a smaller gap.
If we're theorizing...
SSJ Vegeta=300million-- twice as powerful as Frieza saga SSJ Goku seems more than fair.
Android #17/Kamiccolo=600million-- twice as powerful as SSJ Vegeta seems more than fair. For the purposes of this scenario, we'll assume #18 is identical to #17 power-wise.
1st stage Cell=1.2billion-- twice as powerful as #17 seems more than fair.
Given that I don't recall it being stated that Cell's power grew exponentially when he absorbed the androids, I'm going to assume his PL was more logarithmic and increased by the PL of each droid(600million.) So in that case his PL would have increased by 100% and doubled to 2.4 billion after absorbing #17/#18. Heck, even if you throw another 600million on top of that for good luck and assume Perfect Cell's PL was 3billion(again, more than fair), you're still only looking at a 150% increase over his 1st stage form-- which makes Perfect Cell 400% more powerful than #17... And FPSSJ Goku was ultimately much weaker than Perfect Cell(ie. he was less than 400% more powerful than #17.)
That said, if a 400% difference in power is our maximum cap, then it should still be possible for Meta-Cooler(~ #17) to harm FPSSJ Goku to at least some extent(however miniscule)-- especially with a cheap-shot.
....But again: the above is just me theorizing on PLs.
Originally posted by Galan007
Plot.Akira was introducing the long awaited Super Saiyan for the first time!! He going to make him look as uber as possible.
Yeah...sorry, but dismissing evidence out of hand isn't really going to help your case.
Hard to say, as we'd have to know what their specific PL's were.
If we're theorizing...
SSJ Vegeta=300million-- twice as powerful as Frieza saga SSJ Goku seems more than fair.
Android #17/Kamiccolo=600million-- twice as powerful as SSJ Vegeta seems more than fair. For the purposes of this scenario, we'll assume #18 is identical to #17 power-wise.
1st stage Cell=1.2billion-- twice as powerful as #17 seems more than fair.
Hang on a second, ignoring the flaws in your later PL speculations, you kind of conceded the point here.
Doesn't Kamiccolo utterly fail to hurt post-human-absorption 1st stage Cell in any meaningful capacity? Even with his hellfire grenade?
Given that I don't recall it being stated that Cell's power grew exponentially when he absorbed the androids, I'm going to assume his PL was more logarithmic and increased by the PL of each droid(600million.)
To make this assumption would require conceding your point, since android 16 would therefore be >> 50% of 2nd form Cell, yet he can't even phase him with a punch to the face.
So in that case his PL would have increased by 100% and doubled to 2.4 billion after absorbing #17/#18. Heck, even if you throw another 600million on top of that for good luck and assume Perfect Cell's PL was 3billion(again, more than fair), you're still only looking at a 150% increase over his 1st stage form-- which makes Perfect Cell 400% more powerful than #17... And FPSSJ Goku was ultimately much weaker than Perfect Cell(ie. he was less than 400% more powerful than #17.)
Perfect Cell's power-up from his 2nd stage appears to be far more significant than his first, given that he can suppress himself massively and still fight Goku on an even level - when he actually unleashes his full power, the Z warriors are dumbstruck and terrified beyond belief, even with a SSJ2 Gohan at their side.
Remember that 50% FPSSJ Goku > ASSJ Vegeta (Vegeta doesn't hear Goku's words that he's only using half of his power; he senses the power up and is pissed off...and the gap must be pretty huge for even Vegeta to acknowledge) > Semi perfect Cell >> Android 16 >> Android 17 ~ meta cooler.
That said, if a 400% difference in power is our maximum cap, then it should still be possible for Meta-Cooler(~ #17) to harm FPSSJ Goku to at least some extent(however miniscule)-- especially with a cheap-shot.
With cheap shots? Maybe. But it's a stretch to see their pulling off anything fatal or incapacitating.
Originally posted by Master HanThe composition of the being in question plays a HUGE factor in what type of damage they can tank. For the most part, Cell was able to tank attacks from beings weaker than himself w/o so much as flinching. Conversely, Majin Buu could be knocked around by characters VASTLY weaker than himself. Etc.
To make this assumption would require conceding your point, since android 16 would therefore be >> 50% of 2nd form Cell, yet he can't even phase him with a punch to the face.
Also, I can only assume that the power gap between ASSJ Vegeta and Super-Perfect Cell was greater than the power gap between Imperfect Cell and #16-- yet ASSJ Vegeta was able to affect Super-Perfect Cell with a cheap shot blast.
Regardless, this argument can clearly go both ways. We've seen stronger characters tank attacks from weaker characters, and we've seen weaker characters harm stronger characters to an extent.
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Btw: I only replied to this portion of your post because I would have just been repeating myself over and over again had I replied to the rest of your responses.
Originally posted by Master HanLike I've said and said and said:
With cheap shots? Maybe. But it's a stretch to see their pulling off anything fatal or incapacitating.
If you get punched in the arm once it might sting a little, but it's no big deal. Now have that same person punch you in the same spot of your arm several dozen times as fast and hard as they can, and your arm is going to feel like a slab of raw meat when they're done.
Now multiply the power behind those punches(as well as the number of people hitting you) exponentially, add a dash of high-level energy blasts, and apply those cumulative attacks to various portions of your body, and you'll start to understand where I'm coming from with my opinion that the Cooler army could definitely make this a good fight.
Like I've said and said and said:
I don't believe a single Meta-Cooler could cause much damage to Goku at all. However, I believe the miniscule amount of damage he can cause may very well add up into substantial damage very rapidly, given the sheer numbers(and speed) we're dealing with.If you get punched in the arm once it might sting a little, but it's no big deal. Now have that same person punch you in the same spot of your arm several dozen times as fast and hard as they can, and your arm is going to feel like a slab of raw meat when they're done.
Now multiply the power behind those punches(as well as the number of people hitting you) exponentially, add a dash of high-level energy blasts, and apply those cumulative attacks to various portions of your body, and you'll start to understand where I'm coming from with my opinion that the Cooler army could definitely make this a good fight.
Additionally, a whole bunch of small attacks at once is a good deal worse than the same small attacks repeatedly.