Master Order and Lord Chaos vs Mistress Death....

so from what i understand, you are saying that the events of secret wars 2 #6 (when beyonder killed death) took place after FF #319 (the issue where MM made the statement), correct? i disagree.

History of the marvel universe (2011), confirms that the secret wars 2 events (one of which, beyonder killing death) takes place before the FF issue (when doom and the F4 traveled to the beyonder's universe, same issue where MM made the statement):

http://i.imgur.com/kNgCXMC.jpg?1

2009 beyonder bio (from the marvel encyclopedia) says as well:

http://i.imgur.com/YIMwCOY.jpg

Beyonder's 1993 bio makes it pretty clear that beyonder killed death BEFORE FF #319:

http://i.imgur.com/DnBhKQR.jpg?1

^see? the encyclopedia/hanbdooks show that all the secret wars 2 events (killing death included) take place before the time when beyonder and molecule man merged (ff 319), same issue where molecule man stated that he and the beyonder are below eternity and LT, same issue where they were retconned.

that LT bio (which btw is from all new OHOTMU #6 not 4) in fact, contradicts your argument, since it clearly shows that beyonder killing death takes place before the FF issue (if you take a close look at LT's chronological appearances, you'll realize this).

so no, the beyonder/death scene wasn't years after the MM statement. It CHRONOLOGICALLY takes place before the statement - before the retcon - before ff 319

Originally posted by operator616
so from what i understand, you are saying that the events of secret wars 2 #6 (when beyonder killed death) took place after FF #319 (the issue where MM made the statement), correct? i disagree.

History of the marvel universe (2011), confirms that the secret wars 2 events (one of which, beyonder killing death) takes place before the FF issue (when doom and the F4 traveled to the beyonder's universe, same issue where MM made the statement):

http://i.imgur.com/kNgCXMC.jpg?1

2009 beyonder bio (from the marvel encyclopedia) says as well:

http://i.imgur.com/YIMwCOY.jpg

Beyonder's 1993 bio makes it pretty clear that beyonder killed death BEFORE FF #319:

http://i.imgur.com/DnBhKQR.jpg?1

^see? the encyclopedia/hanbdooks show that all the secret wars 2 events (killing death included) take place before the time when beyonder and molecule man merged (ff 319), same issue where molecule man stated that he and the beyonder are below eternity and LT, same issue where they were retconned.

that LT bio (which btw is from all new OHOTMU #6 not 4) in fact, contradicts your argument, since it clearly shows that beyonder killing death takes place before the FF issue (if you take a close look at LT's chronological appearances, you'll realize this).

so no, the beyonder/death scene wasn't years after the MM statement. It CHRONOLOGICALLY takes place before the statement - before the retcon - before ff 319

The chronology of events :
SW II #6 (1985) : Beyonder kills Death and all the Mighty of the Multiverse stand by helpless unable to stop him or undo his damage. Among the assembly was Eternity and the LT

FF #319 (1988) : MM makes his "we are powerful but not as powerful as Eternity or LT" statement.

Quasar #38 (1992) : the scene from SWII #6 is confirmed. Beyonder killing Death and the LT and Eternity and all the other powers of the multiverse being unable to stop him.

All New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z (2006) : the handbook entry of the Living Tribunal CONFIRMS what occured in SWII #6 and shown on panel in Quasar 38.

So either MM was misinformed or his statement has been retconned or both.

So if Beyonder >>>>>>>>>>>>Death because of that SW II #6 incident then he's also >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the might of the multiverse because they were ALL there and unable to stop him or undo the damage he caused by killing Death. So using that + FF 319 to say Eternity >>>>> Death is wrong.

^^ Yall both have sold arguments. Zop, I see what yu sayin.

The retcons contradict/convolute facts, not yall.

I don't consider the Beyonder a normal Cube being, (like Kubik) and that goes for Owen too.
We know Owen's reasons (his humanity) but he has a plot attachment that de-powers him.
As for Beyonder, he originally didn't evolve properly (within a Containment Unit)
which is what forces them to impose limitations on themselves upon development.
It seems by the time he did partake in the CU processes with Owen it was too late,
and the original unlimited potential Beyonder had was crystalized after becoming whole
with most of Owen's CCU energy. (which was always Beyonder's initially)

Come to think of it,
it's funny how Owen with part of Beyonder's power is the monster above them all.

Anyway, my explanation is imo,
but based on external facts that relate to Beyonder/Owen's history.

---------------------------------------------------

btw. Concerning Beyonder killing Death in the her bio.

Beyonder was also confirmed in Eternity's bio as basically almost killing him:

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16565908_ET_bio_Beyonder.jpg]

It also tells us how Eternity sided with Mephisto to try and do what he could not and Owen could.

Just like On Panel.

So Beyonder > Eternity or Death 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Yall both have sold arguments. Zop, I see what yu sayin.

The retcons contradict/convolute facts, not yall.

I don't consider the Beyonder a normal Cube being, (like Kubik) and that goes for Owen too.
We know Owen's reasons (his humanity) but he has a plot attachment that de-powers him.
As for Beyonder, he originally didn't evolve properly (within a Containment Unit)
which is what forces them to impose limitations on themselves upon development.
It seems by the time he did partake in the CU processes with Owen it was too late,
and the original unlimited potential Beyonder had was crystalized after becoming whole
with most of Owen's CCU energy. (which was always Beyonder's initially)

Come to think of it,
it's funny how Owen with part of Beyonder's power is the monster above them all.

Anyway, my explanation is imo,
but based on external facts that relate to Beyonder/Owen's history.

---------------------------------------------------

btw. Concerning Beyonder killing Death in the her bio.

Beyonder was also confirmed in Eternity's bio as basically almost killing him:

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16565908_ET_bio_Beyonder.jpg]

It tells us how Eternity sided with Mephisto to try and do what he could not and Owen could.

Just like On Panel.

So Beyonder > Eternity or Death 🙂

Originally posted by zopzop
No you misunderstood me. I said the confirmation of the events of SWII #6 took place AFTER MM made his statement in FF 319.

The chronology of events :
SW II #6 (1985) : Beyonder kills Death and all the Mighty of the Multiverse stand by helpless unable to stop him or undo his damage. Among the assembly was Eternity and the LT

FF #319 (1988) : MM makes his "we are powerful but not as powerful as Eternity or LT" statement.

Quasar #38 (1992) : the scene from SWII #6 is confirmed. Beyonder killing Death and the LT and Eternity and all the other powers of the multiverse being unable to stop him.

All New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z (2006) : the handbook entry of the Living Tribunal CONFIRMS what occured in SWII #6 and shown on panel in Quasar 38.

So either MM was misinformed or his statement has been retconned or both.

So if Beyonder >>>>>>>>>>>>Death because of that SW II #6 incident then he's also >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the might of the multiverse because they were ALL there and unable to stop him or undo the damage he caused by killing Death. So using that + FF 319 to say Eternity >>>>> Death is wrong.

Ok, now i understand what you're saying. But there's also something i want to point out:

the 1993 bio:

http://i.imgur.com/WfdxqAf.jpg?1

notice that the bio confirms that beyonder killed death, but at the same time, it also confirms FF annual #26 event which says that the beyonder (and all cube beings) is below the Celestials (since the bio says that celestials ALLOWED beyonder to defeat them, this was retconned in the FF annual 26)

so, this bio says that: Celestials > Beyonder > Death, no?

which is why saying eternity (celestials being figments of eternity's imagination) > death is still valid

Originally posted by operator616
Ok, now i understand what you're saying. But there's also something i want to point out:

the 1993 bio:

http://i.imgur.com/WfdxqAf.jpg?1

notice that the bio confirms that beyonder killed death, but at the same time, it also confirms FF annual #26 event which says that the beyonder (and all cube beings) is below the Celestials (since the bio says that celestials ALLOWED beyonder to defeat them, this was retconned in the FF annual 26)

so, this bio says that: Celestials > Beyonder > Death, no?

which is why saying eternity (celestials being figments of eternity's imagination) > death is still valid