Originally posted by Nephthys
Really?"This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order."
Kenobi's own humble opinion. Just as according to Mace's humble opinion Kenobi is a superior swords master to himself.
Originally posted by XRKunKenobi likely had the strongest Force Push of the council,
Wtf man?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi's own humble opinion. Just as according to Mace's humble opinion Kenobi is a superior swords master to himself.
Mace considers him superior in regards to his Soresu not actually covering for any weakness of Kenobi's and him being really great with it. Its just to do with Soresu.
And I don't care how humble a man is, you cannot be so humble that you're actually proficient in SEVEN FORMS and only consider yourself proficient with one of them. That isn't being humble, thats brain-tumor-esque delusion.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I can see him being decent with Ataru since that was his original form,
If he's efficient with Ataru then his thoughts about him not being proficient with any form except for Soresu are clearly meaningless. In fact even with Soresu, he only considers himself "proficient" and not even a Master of the form. So his extra humble thoughts are clearly not reliable on the matter.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If he's efficient with Ataru then his thoughts about him not being proficient with any form except for Soresu are clearly meaningless. In fact even with Soresu, he only considers himself "proficient" and not even a Master of the form. So his extra humble thoughts are clearly not reliable on the matter.
I said 'decent'. Meaning he can use it. 'Proficient' would be if hes competent or skilled it in.
His thoughts absolutely are not meaningless. You claim he's extremely skilled in seven different forms of combat. In regards to this it absolutely is not meaningless that the character himself only considers himself good in one of those forms of combat. It simply isn't possible that he could be highly trained and skilled in seven different forms and not know it. Unless of course he is not as great as you think he is. Obi-Wan knows his abilities and is an authority on them a lot more than you are. He's likely trained in them enough that he can use them, but calling him an advanced practicioner of Ataru, Shii-Cho, Niman, Shien, Jar'Kai, and Tae Jitsu is obviously just not true.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I said 'decent'. Meaning he can use it. 'Proficient' would be if hes competent or skilled it in.His thoughts absolutely are not meaningless. You claim he's extremely skilled in [b]seven different forms of combat
. In regards to this it absolutely is not meaningless that the character himself only considers himself good in one of those forms of combat. It simply isn't possible that he could be highly trained and skilled in seven different forms and not know it. Unless of course he is not as great as you think he is. Obi-Wan knows his abilities and is an authority on them a lot more than you are. He's likely trained in them enough that he can use them, but calling him an advanced practicioner of Ataru, Shii-Cho, Niman, Shien, Jar'Kai, and Tae Jitsu is obviously just not true. [/B]
Hey? I never said he's extremely skilled in all 7 forms. Think your mixing me up with someone esle.
I just interjected to say we can't take Kenobi's thoughts at face value, because is we do then he's not even A Master of Soresu.
Also if the Jar Kai and Ataru he displayed against Maul and Opress wasn't at least high level proficiency, then I have no idea what does qualify as such.
To be fair he isn't saying that he is merely "proficient" in Soresu, just that it's the only form he's proficient in at all.
Where is it said that he used to use Ataru? I don't doubt that he was and I've always just accepted it as a fact but I can't recall ever actually seeing it in a source anywhere.
The Jar Kai I would also just chalk up to as a matter of style and/or drama rather than a real reflection of what Obi-Wan is capable of. Afterall I highly doubt that any real considered approach was made in observing what Obi-Wan is capable of or what such a demonstration would suggest, but rather basically began and ended at whether or not it would look cool or stylish.
Originally posted by ?YLLAER
The Jar Kai I would also just chalk up to as a matter of style and/or drama rather than a real reflection of what Obi-Wan is capable of. Afterall I highly doubt that any real considered approach was made in observing what Obi-Wan is capable of or what such a demonstration would suggest, but rather basically began and ended at whether or not it would look cool or stylish.
You do realize that your blatant appeal to out of universe plot device (which you have no evidence whatsoever to show for) would apply to literally every character in every fictional series, right?
If you follow this line of logic, this board should be shut down. After all, were a crossover between Kenobi and Bane to be put to canon, do you think the authors would carefully analyze feats and accolades to depict a realistic, logical battle? No; they'd focus on plot and character growth, and marketing viability.
So please stop dismissing inconvenient evidence at your whim. Kenobi is the soresu master, and he's also beastly with jar'kai, implying Neiman mastery, and knows ataru and various other forms. He's a high level master with far greater feats and showings than PoD Bane.
Originally posted by ?YLLAER
The Jar Kai I would also just chalk up to as a matter of style and/or drama rather than a real reflection of what Obi-Wan is capable of. Afterall I highly doubt that any real considered approach was made in observing what Obi-Wan is capable of or what such a demonstration would suggest, but rather basically began and ended at whether or not it would look cool or stylish.
Actually TCW has mostly shown combatants fighting according to their canonical styles.
Kenobi is clearly a defensive fighter, Dooku is clearly a fencer, Skywalker a power striker aiming to dominate his opponent. Maul also seems like a power striker but is shown fighting in multiple different ways. Those are all a good reflection of Soresu, Makashi, Djem So and Juyo.
Also in the commentary to the fight in question Dave Filoni states Kenobi is "a very skilled swordsman." So clearly showing what Obi-Wan is capable of was a major part of that fight.
Originally posted by Master Han
You do realize that your blatant appeal to out of universe plot device (which you have no evidence whatsoever to show for) would apply to literally every character in every fictional series, right?
Not true at all, there are numerous storytellers who demand nothing less than a rigidly consistent continuity in their works that they refuse to compromise on. It might not be the norm, but it does exist.
If you follow this line of logic, this board should be shut down. After all, were a crossover between Kenobi and Bane to be put to canon, do you think the authors would carefully analyze feats and accolades to depict a realistic, logical battle? No; they'd focus on plot and character growth, and marketing viability.
Well naturally in most cases out of universe considerations do shape in-universe happenings and we have no choice but to accept that reality. The difference is when you have something that's so fundamental, so important, so prevalent and universal and then on the other hand you have something that's entirely insignificant and inconsequential. Yes, lightsabers were most likely largely designed based on how cool they look, but they are obviously a crucial aspect of Star Wars that we have to accept. Obi-Wan skillfully using Jar Kai on one occasion is not a significant element of the Star Wars universe, it isn't particularly likely to be revisited and it is of little real consequence. The decision to use that scene for whatever reason does not possess the same functionality to shape a fundamental component of the setting. I think it would be more wise to accept that a cartoon will at times simply have a propensity for the cartoonish rather than analysing something that you really cannot claim was particularly well thought out. This is of course further compounded by its existence in a vast and wildly inconsistent setting.
In your example, I'd imagine it would be a bit of both but it would depend entirely on the architect of that crossover.
So please stop dismissing inconvenient evidence at your whim. Kenobi is the soresu master, and he's also beastly with jar'kai, implying Neiman mastery, and knows ataru and various other forms. He's a high level master with far greater feats and showings than PoD Bane.
Believe me, I have virtually no interest in this thread, I was simply responding to that one detail. This matchup is quite simply, beneath Dessel and an insult to his abilities. But if you guys with your distorted sense of perspective wish to reasonably discuss this go ahead.
Originally posted by ?YLLAER
Obi-Wan skillfully using Jar Kai on one occasion is not a significant element of the Star Wars universe, it isn't particularly likely to be revisited and it is of little real consequence. The decision to use that scene for whatever reason does not possess the same functionality to shape a fundamental component of the setting.
LOL We're not about to start using your speculation on why that scene was made, to just pretend it didn't happen. It did happen, and it was one of the best fights choreographed in TCW.
And there was thought put into it. For example they had Kenobi continuously kicking Opress's knee(a martial arts tactic to aim for that weakpoint), because otherwise it would not be believable for Kenobi to be continuously overpowering a Physical Beast like Opress.
Originally posted by ?YLLAER
I think it would be more wise to accept that a cartoon will at times simply have a propensity for the cartoonish rather than analysing something that you really cannot claim was particularly well thought out. This is of course further compounded by its existence in a vast and wildly inconsistent setting.
That "cartoonish" source is actually a higher source of canon than any of the sources on KOTOR and SWTOR. Created by the man himself- Lucas, and representing his vision.
I'm not disputing its level of canon (I would make a similar argument with Anakin picking up a second lightsaber and using Jar Kai against Dooku in AotC), nor am I saying that nothing about the cartoon or the scene in question was well thought out. It's just that particular element I'm referring to it, I think it's probable that it was just included for dramatic effect or stylistic purposes and that it did not have a well thought out consideration of continuity nor will it have a lasting effect on it. I certainly think it should be considered subordinate to a more serious work in that single regard.
Though the "looking visually cool" factor probably was a motivation for it, when it happens in a medium of such high canonicity it ripples down and effects the whole EU.
For instance I'm sure Darth Maul having a Saber Staff was only for the purpose of looking good visually, and to do a Lightsaber fight in a way not previously seen. The result of this was the Saberstaff being Maul's standard weapon and one he can use with incredible skill throughout his EU showings.
Similarly a T-Canon source showing what's possibly Kenobi's best saber performance to date through beastly Jar Kai skills has now made Kenobi having beastly Jar Kai skills canon. Especially when the commentary to that fight has the Supervising Director state Kenobi is "a very skilled swordsman," proving it was their intention to show that.
Those are hardly the same things lol. Darth Maul's Saber Staff is both a piece of iconic imagery and a defining element of the character's visual design. Obi-Wan's use of Jar Kai does not have those same characteristics.
I'm sure it was their intention to show that Kenobi was a very skilled swordsman, but I'm questioning whether they put any thought into the implications of him using two sabers extremely effectively (that it might suggest a particularly high level of training and ability with Jar Kai, not to mention what others have proposed which is a by extension mastery of Niman) which I don't believe they did and there is little evidence to suggest, and I just think we can all be mature about this and accept it for what it is, which is a cool, dramatic scene in a cartoon and nothing more; when it's clear that there was probably no well thought out consideration of continuity in including that demonstration, and likely no real lasting impact on canon, I think it's inherently dishonest to treat a technical analysis of the demonstration as a true reflection of canon.