TCW Maul, RotS Anakin and Dooku vs. DoE Bane, Zannah and Satele Shan

Originally posted by Stigma
I see 3 heavy hitters vs. the other 3

I also think Maul is not a weak link at all.
His TK is impressive (pulling down a ship from a rock, TK'ing Kenobi numerous times).
He's also praised as an extremely potent duelist (master of Juyo, thus a master of multiple lightsaber forms, has great speed, knowledge of Teras'Kasi martial arts IIRC.)
In close combat I am not inclined to give Satele a win, unless she has a big edge in the Force.

Originally posted by Dolos
What is wrong with you?

I have opinions. estahuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have opinions. estahuh

@ Dolos,
I've edited my post a bit, but basically it says what you've quoted.

Ok, so I gave it some thought, and here is my analysis:

Dooku vs. DoE Bane

Sabers:
Dooku is considered to be one of the best duelists in Jedi History. He’s a master of ultimate dueling form-Makashi. He was able to contend with Yoda, and is more or less equal to Windu, he effortlessly saber-handled Grievous and Ventress (CW mini). Dooku is faster than Kenobi, who is himself extremely fast. Again, Dooku was able to compete with Yoda, who himself is an absolute top tier speed-wise.

DoE Bane is a Djem So practitioner with of one of the fastest learning rates in history. He was able to match Kas’im only a after relatively brief training. Bested Rastka Lsu (though when enhanced by the Orbalisks), was beating Zannah, who is said (I believe) to be extremely proficient with Soresu. His DoE rain feat is pretty uber. He is physically powerful and his Djem So might be problematic for Dooku to handle, but not to a degree of Anakin’s Djem So. (Anakin can dish out more raw power). DoE Bane has his uber rain feat (though some pointed out that rain drops travels slower than blaster bolts). Nevertheless, it was a middle of a pouring rain so his speed must be extreme.

Force:
Dooku seems to have better TK feats like collapsing caves, collapsing bridges, TKing Jedi of Kenobi’s caliber effortlessly, his FL was powerful enough to kill Kiffari warriors, to easily subdue Ventress, Anakin, Savage and while drugged and blinded he used it to beat Ventress and and two other nigthsisters.

TBH I’m not well-versed in DoE Bane force powers. I assume his FL is more or less the same as his RoT incarnation and thus seems to be more powerful than Dooku’s. His TK is impressive, but I cannot remember any of Bane’s TK feats from DoE. Bane possesses some unique skills like death field, but I’m not sure if it will come into play in this setting.

All-out: I’m inclined to give it to Dooku. Overall he is a superior duelist, his force feats are better, though DoE Bane most probably has a more powerful FL. Speed-wise DoE Bane might be faster, but not to a degree that will make a difference. Dooku 7/10

Anakin vs. Zannah

Sabers:
Anakin is the finest practitioner of Djem So Dooku had ever seen. He probably mastered this form. He was able to push Kenobi back, even though Kenobi knew his moves intimately. When pissed, his ever growing stamina and power enhance his saber skills to a degree that he makes short work of Dooku. He is extremely fast and agile.

Zannah was trained in Soresu and probably mastered this form. Soresu relies on dragging out the duel, tiring out your opponents and exploiting their weaknesses. She was able to contend with DoE Bane, but as far as I remember, she was on a losing end in that saber battle.
When facing Anakin Zannah is at disadvantage because Anakin’s unparalleled force reserves will ensure that he will only grow in power throughout the duel.

Force: Anakin seems to possess very good force defenses, he was able to shrug off most of Dooku’s force attacks at numerous occasions. Still, he was also force-handled by Ventress and Savage at some point. His TK is good, but he rarely uses it in mid-combat.

Zannah was a force prodigy from a very young age. As a child she broke the necks of two Jedi and atomized her friend’s hand. Later on she became skilled in Sith Sorcery, but I’m not sure to what degree it will be effective against Anakin. It seems that Zannah has more complete mastery over her force capabilities and a more versatile range of techniques that she can use. Raw power goes to Anakin, though.

All-out: Here I’m inclined to give the edge to Anakin. He has extreme force power reserves, is most probably a better duelists, his force powers are also quite good, and even though Zannah seems to possess greater mastery and refinement in her force abilities, it will be not enough to put Anakin down.

Maul vs. Satele
I’ll reiterate my points about Maul.

Sabers:
Maul’s praised as an extremely skilled duelist: "One of the deadliest Sith Apprentices in history", master of Juyo, thus a master of multiple lightsaber forms, has great speed, knowledge of Teras'Kasi martial arts IIRC. Maul defeated Bondara (who was said to be unmatched in technical skill with a saber... Kas'im I'm looking at you), defeated Qui Gon, effortlessly defeated Savage, matched Kenobi in sabers). He is also noted for his impressive speed and agility.

Satele: ... Hmm here I admit I have almost no knowledge on her notable saber feats. In Hope trailer she was pwning some random Sith and holding her own against Malgus … Unless someone can provide good saber feats for Satele, I think Maul is a clear victor in sabers..

Force:
Maul’s TK is impressive: pulling down a ship from a rock, TK'ing Kenobi numerous times.

Satele seems to be portrayed as a powerhouse, but from the top of my head I cannot really remember her force feats from the book. Yet, from what I’ve seen in the trailer, she has a very powerful force push, enough power to topple a large tree and a unique ability of energy absorption. Importantly, she seem to rely heavily on her force powers in combat, and this is a smart move against Maul who in close combat is an absolute beast.

All-out: In this case I’m genuinely undecided, mainly because I don't know the extend of Satele’s saber and force feats. She appears to be portrayed as a force titian, but as a duelist? I dunno.

team 1 vs. team 2
As of now I'm inclined to give an edge to team 1. They take it 7/10.

Unless DoE Bane and particularly Satele are more powerful than I give them credit for, this is my opinion on the matter.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ha ha ha, no.

Team 2 wins.

Lemme guess. You think Bane can solo all 3.

Guess what? He might. But so can Skywalker. In fact, so could Dooku. And Maul is beating Satele and Zannah in sabers.

Anakin has good TK feats as of ROTS.

Dooku has incredible feats (already mentioned choking, TKing Kenobi and jedi similar to Kenobi, greatest master of Makashi, very fast, able to match Yoda, FL able to subdue and kill various things)

Even Maul became a TK animal. You don't just toss a ship to block pirates from attacking you. And you don't just use an extremely powerful push that was strong enough to blast Kenobi through several walls. And his dueling feats are excellent. You don't match Sidious in speed, and he showed no signs of tiring until he was disarmed.

Originally posted by XRKun

Even Maul became a TK animal. You don't just toss a ship to block pirates from attacking you. And you don't just use an extremely powerful push that was strong enough to blast Kenobi through several walls. And his dueling feats are excellent. You don't match Sidious in speed, and he showed no signs of tiring until he was disarmed.

😄

I like you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
😄

I like you.

lol. I noticed you never voice your opinions of threads involving TOR characters, and very rarely if a PT character is involved in a said TOR thread. Why is that?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
lol. I noticed you never voice your opinions of threads involving TOR characters, and very rarely if a PT character is involved in a said TOR thread. Why is that?

Don't know much about them. Not played any of the games.

Unlike people like Kurupt Thanosi I tend to keep quiet if I don't know much about the characters/subjects involved. But instead will read and learn a bit.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't know much about them. Not played any of the games.

Unlike people like Kurupt Thanosi I tend to keep quiet if I don't know much about the characters/subjects involved. But instead will read and learn a bit.

Ah ok. Should get into the TOR era though, very interesting era.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kas'im isn't one of the greatest duelist ever. His knowledge of dueling, techniques and forms is certainly amongst the best, but if that was so, Vader would be a better duelist than Malgus on the account of being able to combine multiple forms into one.

Bane is not stronger than Anakin, and Maul can match him fairly well in that aspect as well. Bane is at best as fast as Maul which is being generous, and the PT team has better skill feats than him.

Uh, he is. You just said his lightsaber skill is indeed among the best ever so yeah. Besides which is the fact that people have argued him to be at or above Obi-Wan's level in lightsaber combat.

Bane is more powerful than Anakin in terms of actualised power. He can use the Force to a greater degree of Mastery than Anakin and thus is more powerful than him in his actual command of the Force. He's got incredibly Force Knowledge from 4 holocrons and accumulated resources and has displayed many advanced techniques and powers. He's powerful enough to brush off Kaan's telepathic assault despite Kaan being advanced enough in that aspect to influence hundreds of Sith. He has extreme mastery of combat techniques with his ability to disintegrate his opponents with his TK and lightning that are above what Anakin has been shown to defend against. In terms of these aspects he eclipses Maul as well. He is also faster than Maul (as well as Anakin and Dooku) despite your assertion. In PoD he moves faster than an entire room of Sith (including Kas'im) can keep up with and then overwhelms Kas'im through sheer power in a lightsaber duel. In RoT he was fast enough to appear to wield a dozen lightsabers from Zannah's perspective and dodge Raskta's BM-enhanced speed while his own was diminished. In PoD he was fast enough to dodge Zannah while unarmed as well as protect himself from every raindrop in a howling storm for 10 minutes.

What amount of gravity on that planet when he's flailing his lightsaber around?

He was on Ciutric IV. 😖hrug:

Originally posted by Dolos
Dooku is the best duelist in the mythos

No he isn't. 😬

Originally posted by Stigma
Ok, so I gave it some thought, and here is my analysis:

Dooku vs. DoE Bane

[b]Sabers:
Dooku is considered to be one of the best duelists in Jedi History. He’s a master of ultimate dueling form-Makashi. He was able to contend with Yoda, and is more or less equal to Windu, he effortlessly saber-handled Grievous and Ventress (CW mini). Dooku is faster than Kenobi, who is himself extremely fast. Again, Dooku was able to compete with Yoda, who himself is an absolute top tier speed-wise.

DoE Bane is a Djem So practitioner with of one of the fastest learning rates in history. He was able to match Kas’im only a after relatively brief training. Bested Rastka Lsu (though when enhanced by the Orbalisks), was beating Zannah, who is said (I believe) to be extremely proficient with Soresu. His DoE rain feat is pretty uber. He is physically powerful and his Djem So might be problematic for Dooku to handle, but not to a degree of Anakin’s Djem So. (Anakin can dish out more raw power). DoE Bane has his uber rain feat (though some pointed out that rain drops travels slower than blaster bolts). Nevertheless, it was a middle of a pouring rain so his speed must be extreme.[/b][

As you said, raindrops are likely slower than blaster bolts, but the fact is that theres a lot more of them and they're smaller and harder to hit. Banes feat isn't just a great speed feat, but its also a superb skill feat. Impressive considering he isn't even a Soresu duelist primarily. I'm also not sure, but does a Jedi's precognition only flare up in terms of danger? If so Bane would have had to be dealing with the storm without that advantage a Jedi would have in terms of being able to react to a blaster bolt with precognition. As to speed, as I said its the fact that theres so much rain thats the problem. In terms of a howling storm you're being hit with rain all over your body near constantly. Whereas with blaster bolts you only have to deal with them one, two or possibly three at a time. Bane would have to be shielding his whole body almost all the time.

Bane also has other speed feats as I posted above. In terms of skill he was obviously extremely skilled as you said and if there is a gap between them in this regard I doubt it would be large.

Originally posted by Stigma
[b]Force:
Dooku seems to have better TK feats like collapsing caves, collapsing bridges, TKing Jedi of Kenobi’s caliber effortlessly, his FL was powerful enough to kill Kiffari warriors, to easily subdue Ventress, Anakin, Savage and while drugged and blinded he used it to beat Ventress and and two other nigthsisters.

TBH I’m not well-versed in DoE Bane force powers. I assume his FL is more or less the same as his RoT incarnation and thus seems to be more powerful than Dooku’s. His TK is impressive, but I cannot remember any of Bane’s TK feats from DoE. Bane possesses some unique skills like death field, but I’m not sure if it will come into play in this setting.[/b]

I disagree that Dooku has better TK feats as Bane has ripped through the defenses of Sith Lords like paper, disintegrated a dozen attackers with a wave of his hand, disintegrated metal, blew a durasteel door off its hinges with enough force for it to fly across the next room and kill someone, unleashing Force Waves powerful enough to pulp internal organs and shatter bones (the last 3 done while drugged to hamper his Force abilities) and of course collapse the huge temple of Lehon. Dooku's feats are mostly lifting things and are not nearly as devastating in terms of power. His abilities are good for supplementing his lightsaber abilities but not exceptionally destructive towards his opponents imo.

Yes, his lightning is still as powerful as capable incinerating/disintegrating 3 people, a tangle net and stone on separate occasions. He also unleashed an ionic storm capable of diffusing blaster bolts in midair and melting blaster rifles (but oddly enough not burn the people holding them much? Wtf?).

Originally posted by Stigma
[b]All-out: I’m inclined to give it to Dooku. Overall he is a superior duelist, his force feats are better, though DoE Bane most probably has a more powerful FL. Speed-wise DoE Bane might be faster, but not to a degree that will make a difference. Dooku 7/10[/b]

Nah. Bane is a superior duelist because of his speed and sheer power and is more devestating with his Force abilities to the point where I doubt Dooku will be capable of defending himself from them or will get battered by Bane.

Originally posted by Stigma
Anakin vs. Zannah

[b]Sabers:
Anakin is the finest practitioner of Djem So Dooku had ever seen. He probably mastered this form. He was able to push Kenobi back, even though Kenobi knew his moves intimately. When pissed, his ever growing stamina and power enhance his saber skills to a degree that he makes short work of Dooku. He is extremely fast and agile.

Zannah was trained in Soresu and probably mastered this form. Soresu relies on dragging out the duel, tiring out your opponents and exploiting their weaknesses. She was able to contend with DoE Bane, but as far as I remember, she was on a losing end in that saber battle.

When facing Anakin Zannah is at disadvantage because Anakin’s unparalleled force reserves will ensure that he will only grow in power throughout the duel.

Force: Anakin seems to possess very good force defenses, he was able to shrug off most of Dooku’s force attacks at numerous occasions. Still, he was also force-handled by Ventress and Savage at some point. His TK is good, but he rarely uses it in mid-combat.

Zannah was a force prodigy from a very young age. As a child she broke the necks of two Jedi and atomized her friend’s hand. Later on she became skilled in Sith Sorcery, but I’m not sure to what degree it will be effective against Anakin. It seems that Zannah has more complete mastery over her force capabilities and a more versatile range of techniques that she can use. Raw power goes to Anakin, though.

All-out: Here I’m inclined to give the edge to Anakin. He has extreme force power reserves, is most probably a better duelists, his force powers are also quite good, and even though Zannah seems to possess greater mastery and refinement in her force abilities, it will be not enough to put Anakin down.[/b]

I can't really be bothered to argue this. Though Anakin getting stronger the more he fights is really only applicable in his duel with Dooku. He does not do that in his later duel with Kenobi for instance.

Originally posted by Stigma
Maul vs. Satele
I’ll reiterate my points about Maul.

[b]Sabers:
Maul’s praised as an extremely skilled duelist: "One of the deadliest Sith Apprentices in history", master of Juyo, thus a master of multiple lightsaber forms, has great speed, knowledge of Teras'Kasi martial arts IIRC. Maul defeated Bondara (who was said to be unmatched in technical skill with a saber... Kas'im I'm looking at you), defeated Qui Gon, effortlessly defeated Savage, matched Kenobi in sabers). He is also noted for his impressive speed and agility.

Satele: ... Hmm here I admit I have almost no knowledge on her notable saber feats. In Hope trailer she was pwning some random Sith and holding her own against Malgus … Unless someone can provide good saber feats for Satele, I think Maul is a clear victor in sabers..[/b]

Yeah, Satale doesn't really have much although she clearly is a great duelist and was trained by the Orders Battlemaster:

"The Grand Master had impressed with more than her telekinetic and telepathic skills. Her speed and decisiveness in combat were unbelievable—but she never once made a sound. Her face was calm, almost serene, as she slashed and hacked through the hexes. There was a tranquillity about her, almost a blissfulness, that spoke of an intimacy with violence Ax had not expected.

To the Sith, violence was an art form. To Master Satele, it seemed like life itself."

Source: (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Fatal Alliance)

Originally posted by Stigma
[b]Force:
Maul’s TK is impressive: pulling down a ship from a rock, TK'ing Kenobi numerous times.

Satele seems to be portrayed as a powerhouse, but from the top of my head I cannot really remember her force feats from the book. Yet, from what I’ve seen in the trailer, she has a very powerful force push, enough power to topple a large tree and a unique ability of energy absorption. Importantly, she seem to rely heavily on her force powers in combat, and this is a smart move against Maul who in close combat is an absolute beast.[/b]

Off the top of my head Force feats that you might not know are Satale shattering a blast door with a push:

Immobilising a dozen Hex droids while maintaining a Force shield to trap air, dismantling hex droids with a gesture (when hex droids are a match for Jedi and Sith) and destroying hundreds of hex droids with the Force and her lightsaber (which is fvcking impressive seeing as the above). I'm looking for quotes of that since it seems to be the best thing shes ever done but my sight to download SW books has shat itself so if anyone has Fatale Alliance maybe they could look it up or I'll just buy it I guess. She was also a telepath and had extremely advanced foresight.

Originally posted by Stigma
[b]All-out: They take it 7/10.[/B]

Reverse that imo. Team 2 wins 7/10 times.

Everyone on Team 1 has fought Obi-Wan before.

Obi-Wan has deflected fire from an entire army. His speed is the same as he fought Dooku in the movie.

Two, three, and four. Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well. Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there . . . Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center's superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides. By the time he flipped down through the air to land catfooted on the deck once more, nearly half the droids between him and Grievous had been destroyed by their own not-so-friendly fire. He cut his way into the mob of remaining troops as smoothly as if it were no more than a canebrake near some sunlit beach; his steady pace left behind a trail of smoking slices of droid. "Keep firing!" Grievous roared to the spider droids that Flanked him.

Guess which scene doesn't happen in the movie!

That one!

This does. And this is the same speed he uses compared to that scene above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTa1vxmY3M

A Tri-Fighter Droid can be seen in the background near the beginning of the duel.
Tri-Fighter Droids are at traveling at 50% of the speed of light.
Speed of Light is 299792458 meters/second.
Half the Speed of Light is 149896229 meters/second.
Tri-Fighter Droids are 5.4 meters long.
The video frame is 860x465.

http://i.imgur.com/npZw7R6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vPIGutF.jpg
The size of the Droid is 46 pixels.
The Droid was shifted from 60 to 3 pixels away in a single frame.
Displacement of 57 pixels.
Size of Droid in meters / Size in Pixels = Meters per pixel
Displacement in pixels * meters per pixel of the Droid = Displacement in Meters
Time Frame = Displacement in Meters / ( Half the Speed of Light )

Obi-Wan is 1.82meters tall or 387 pixels tall.
His hand from the top is 59 pixels in the first frame. In the second frame, his hand from the top is 21 pixels.
Obi-Wan's Displacement of 38 pixels.
Height in meters / height in pixels = Meters per pixel
Obi-Wan's Displacement in meters = Displacement in pixels * Meters per pixel
Obi-Wan's Displacement in meters / Time Frame = Speed of Obi-Wan in meters/second

Most ridiculous post ever. Did you copy that?

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
This does. And this is the same speed he uses compared to that scene above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTa1vxmY3M

A Tri-Fighter Droid can be seen in the background near the beginning of the duel.
Tri-Fighter Droids are at traveling at 50% of the speed of light.
Speed of Light is 299792458 meters/second.
Half the Speed of Light is 149896229 meters/second.
Tri-Fighter Droids are 5.4 meters long.
The video frame is 860x465.

http://i.imgur.com/npZw7R6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vPIGutF.jpg
The size of the Droid is 46 pixels.
The Droid was shifted from 60 to 3 pixels away in a single frame.
Displacement of 57 pixels.
Size of Droid in meters / Size in Pixels = Meters per pixel
Displacement in pixels * meters per pixel of the Droid = Displacement in Meters
Time Frame = Displacement in Meters / ( Half the Speed of Light )

Obi-Wan is 1.82meters tall or 387 pixels tall.
His hand from the top is 59 pixels in the first frame. In the second frame, his hand from the top is 21 pixels.
Obi-Wan's Displacement of 38 pixels.
Height in meters / height in pixels = Meters per pixel
Obi-Wan's Displacement in meters = Displacement in pixels * Meters per pixel
Obi-Wan's Displacement in meters / Time Frame = Speed of Obi-Wan in meters/second

This is hilarious, I've never seen math applied to fictitious events like this, but I actually can see a Star Wars fan doing this. But it's good that people like doing math. Math can be a great force of good in this world.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
This does.

No it doesn't. Grievous specifically orders his droids not to fire on Obi-Wan in the movie. He doesn't have to deflect a single blaster bolt, you dolt.

Team 1 has a solid edge in a duel. I'd argue that TCW Maul could out-duel Bane after a fierce fight, Anakin could more or less overpower Zannah entirely--Though she'd hold her own for a short time. Satele would be able to stand ground against Dooku, but ultimately has little to no chance of winning in a duel. Team 1 consists of much better duelists.

Team 2, however, takes the Force edge. Maul's TK is probably on Bane's level, but Bane's got some powerful FL, and other abilities such as essence transfer and Force Drain which he can use to high extents. Anakin's TK is probably better than Zannahs (Albeit not by much) but her Sith Sorcery makes her a deadly opponent for Anakin--Who has many demons that she can use to her advantage. Dooku vs Satele with the Force is a toughie, but Satele's probably got more raw power in her TK while Dooku has more skill with it, but her Tutaminis could absorb both Dooku's FL and possibly his lightsaber, bolstering her TK powers to a level above Dooku's capabilities. She's also got shatterpoint and shiz, she's probably taking a Force duel.

So really, this is a sabers vs force argument, which is everlasting. However, the disparity between the teams as duelists is a larger difference than the disparity with the Force. I'd say Team 1 should win, unless Zannah has a chance to take out Anakin with her Sith Sorcery, or Satele does something uber enough to carry the team. However, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that team 2 just doesn't have what it takes.

I'm voting Team 1.