Originally posted by Digi
That's half the problem with non-comic threads in the first place. If you aren't well-versed on both characters (and this goes for any thread, actually), your opinion should not carry any weight. And no, it's pretty clear he doesn't.I love the Doctor, but lopsided bias serves no one.
To even suggest that Doctor can beat the Lightbringer is laughable.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So Doctor can beat Lucifer in some way?
Doubtful. If forced, I'd have to side with LM here. But the "laughable" comment was my main sticking point. More than the other recent prep fights, I can't gift this one to the Doctor. The Time Lords as a whole, perhaps. But I always shy away from absolutes in these type of fights. To pretend we can make accurate determinations when considering reality-warping, multiversal potential requires more than a bit of hubris, imo. The Doctor's starting advantages (TARDIS) and ability to improvise better than most give him the edge over many other known prep gods. But Lucifer has no such disadvantages.
Not sure you caught the edit where I try to work through the fight. But here it is...
So like, if the Doc decided to use the Eye of Harmony to rewrite the laws of reality to benefit him and/or hurt LM, and weaponized the Heart of the TARDIS (essentially, the entirety of time and space converted to a power source) to use against LM, and managed to make the fight take place in some pocket dimension or abstract dimension outside LM's primary influence, whose properties level the playing field, or maybe the "un-space" between dimensions that is outside causal control...maybe we're getting close? But that also assumes a lopsided view of the fight, with LM doing nothing while the Doctor brings his best weapons to bear.
It would also be out of character for the Doctor, so we'd have to assume CIS is off.
Originally posted by DigiThere are places where Lucifer's powers don't work or are weakened?
Not sure you caught the edit where I try to work through the fight. But here it is...So like, if the Doc decided to use the Eye of Harmony to rewrite the laws of reality to benefit him and/or hurt LM, and weaponized the Heart of the TARDIS (essentially, the entirety of time and space converted to a power source) to use against LM, and managed to make the fight take place in some pocket dimension or abstract dimension outside LM's primary influence, whose properties level the playing field, or maybe the "un-space" between dimensions that is outside causal control...maybe we're getting close? But that also assumes a lopsided view of the fight, with LM doing nothing while the Doctor brings his best weapons to bear.
It would also be out of character for the Doctor, so we'd have to assume CIS is off.
Originally posted by Mindset
There are places where Lucifer's powers don't work or are weakened?
Probably not. But a lot of things tend to go pear-shaped when you're in a place where the laws of reality are defined by another. A lot of this is hypotehtical, as it must be when trying to interpret how two abstract-level characters interact.
In any case, I was just outlining possible avenue(s) of victory. I wasn't saying that's the most likely outcome. As stated, I would side with LM in this thread.
So an object which can redefine the entire universe as the user see's fit will do nothing to Lucifer? I am aware that there is an argument that Michael and Lucifer created DC's creation etc but still someone like the doctor using the EOH to gain an advantage over an opponent and say that it would do squat is nonsensical, also, like digi stated, The Heart Of The Tardis is Immensly powerful, if he weaponised that and this is just a theory weaponised it to target Lucifer he has a chance imho but i was just stating he could win with the EOH.
Originally posted by LeonBuco666
So an object which can redefine the entire universe as the user see's fit will do nothing to Lucifer? I am aware that there is an argument that Michael and Lucifer created DC's creation etc but still someone like the doctor using the EOH to gain an advantage over an opponent and say that it would do squat is nonsensical, also, like digi stated, The Heart Of The Tardis is Immensly powerful, if he weaponised that and this is just a theory weaponised it to target Lucifer he has a chance imho but i was just stating he could win with the EOH.
Lucifer already wrote a multiverse to his whim. He also tanked the Demiurgic Power (God's power) point blank and didn't flinch.
@Digi: Don't listen to abhi's nonsense. Lucifer has come close to(or actually been) beaten before, so it's not a question of whether the Doctor is capable of doing so or not.
Nope, the conundrum that lies here is that Lucifer isn't exactly the standard plot device omnipotent "jobber" that characters can just plot-defeat and get it over with. Lucifer is capable of overcoming great odds(and by great, I mean GREAT) even when stripped of his vast abilities. He finds a way even when there is no way, much like the Doctor himself.
This is what makes this such a hard battle to figure out.