well, i know better than to question mindset, so i won't. but i will throw out a question that has me curious: we all know doom has crazy willpower, but for the sake of a discussion, let's reverse the situation for a moment: if DOOM'S parents were killed by a gunman, and doom found them, would he have enough willpower NOT to kill them? iow--does it take more willpower to achieve a sought after goal saying "to hell with who dies or HOW i do it," or does it take more willpower to actively stay within moral boundaries even if it means NOT accomplishing your goal?
Originally posted by leonidas
well, i know better than to question mindset, so i won't. but i will throw out a question that has me curious: we all know doom has crazy willpower, but for the sake of a discussion, let's reverse the situation for a moment: if DOOM'S parents were killed by a gunman, and doom found them, would he have enough willpower NOT to kill them? iow--does it take more willpower to achieve a sought after goal saying "to hell with who dies or HOW i do it," or does it take more willpower to actively stay within moral boundaries even if it means NOT accomplishing your goal?
I think Doom could stop himself, but he wouldn't. It's not just a matter of willpower, it's absolutely also a matter of morals. It takes willpower to stay within your moral boundaries, but willpower has nothing to do with what those moral boundaries are, and Doom's are...significantly broader than Bruce's.
Hmm...
If it served his purposes, yes, Doom would. Just like it served his purposes to forego becoming the Sorcerer Supreme and check his ego in order to have Dr. Strange aid him in his scheme to save his mother's soul from hell, even though it meant losing his mother's love and being rejected by her in order to save her.
Though, I think in Doom's case it's more of a self serving determination than it is a 'moral' will. I also don't think 'morality' is a requisite for will.
then i suppose that begs the question: if bruce were as utterly immoral as doom, could he have accomplished all the things doom has? and i don't think morality is a requisite for willpower either--i simply used bruce's SENSE of morality as a testament to his own willpower. staying within a moral boundary does indeed require great willpower--especially when it's NOT self-serving.
Originally posted by Odekahn
... That's because the story hasn't ended yet. It's batman's war on crime, an ongoing thing, but Batman almost always wins his battles. That's the difference.
Yet he's even further away from his goal than when he started, that doesn't sound like something to be proud of.
Originally posted by leonidas
then i suppose that begs the question: if bruce were as utterly immoral as doom, could he have accomplished all the things doom has?
Probably not.
Mainly due to technical limitations. Bruce is smart, but not Doom smart in the tech department. (That kind of goes for DC science in general, though. You have to look towards the Legion of Super Heroes to really compare to the best Marvel super science..)
Celestial killing guns and Big G power jacking plans are some of the things I'm talking about. These things Reed and Doom cobble together on their own time, while Batman or the JLA would need a plot device from some external source to have a chance at defeating such beings, and it would end up being a close shave...
Delusions or grandeur and willpower are not the same thing. A true test of ones willpower is setting realistic goals, knowing ones limitations,acknowledging the possibility of failure, and proceeding anyway. When Batman sets out to fight crime he doesn't harbour any allusions that he will completely eradicate all crime within the city. He knows his limitations, overcomes tremendous odds and maintains a realistic attitude. Doom on the other hand assumes that he will win simply because he is Doom. He creates unrealistic goals for himself and when he fails he acts like a Scooby Doo villain and blames everyone but himself for his failure.
Originally posted by Brockalizer
Delusions or grandeur and willpower are not the same thing. A true test of ones willpower is setting realistic goals, knowing ones limitations,acknowledging the possibility of failure, and proceeding anyway. When Batman sets out to fight crime he doesn't harbour any allusions that he will completely eradicate all crime within the city. He knows his limitations, overcomes tremendous odds and maintains a realistic attitude. Doom on the other hand assumes that he will win simply because he is Doom. He creates unrealistic goals for himself and when he fails he acts like a Scooby Doo villain and blames everyone but himself for his failure.
Again, Bruce has been broken whereas Doom has not. Doom wins.
Originally posted by BrockalizerWhat's a realistic goal for Doom?
Delusions or grandeur and willpower are not the same thing. A true test of ones willpower is setting realistic goals, knowing ones limitations,acknowledging the possibility of failure, and proceeding anyway. When Batman sets out to fight crime he doesn't harbour any allusions that he will completely eradicate all crime within the city. He knows his limitations, overcomes tremendous odds and maintains a realistic attitude. Doom on the other hand assumes that he will win simply because he is Doom. He creates unrealistic goals for himself and when he fails he acts like a Scooby Doo villain and blames everyone but himself for his failure.
He has beaten Odin, SS, Reed, Galactus, Beyonder, MoD, taken over the world multiple times, etc.
Anyway, his showings of willpower: Taking Beyonder's powers, no sold a amped Purple Man, and coming back from being tossed back in time to own MoD, among other things trumps Batman absolutely.
Idk why you refuse to accept the fact that Doom is superior.