How many freedoms has 9/11 cost us?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Did you know there's a bit of a time delay between the U.S. and Europe? So, like, if something happened here in New York around 9:00am, the BBC could easily have footage and be broadcasting it by about 4:30am their time, making it appear like the BBC had footage before it actually happened. And that's assuming they even did that.

So unless they broadcast it like a week before I wouldn't think it's such a major conspiracy proving thing.

well, the issue isn't that BBC broadcast "9-11" before it happened, they said tower 7 collapsed before it actually had. They have apologized for the mistake, and their explanation is essentially: "everyone knew, for hours, that tower 7 was going to come down, and Reuters picked up an incorrect report that it had, which was then reported by the BBC". Reuters did make this report, but it had come from a completely non-confirmed source who took the claim down almost immediately after posting it.

Basically, in all the chaos, Reuters repeated something that everyone was expecting, though from a dubious source, which BBC then reported. All in all, pretty mundane. Unless one believes the Illuminati is in the business of putting out press releases...

Originally posted by Oliver North
well, the issue isn't that BBC broadcast "9-11" before it happened, they said tower 7 collapsed before it actually had. They have apologized for the mistake, and their explanation is essentially: "everyone knew, for hours, that tower 7 was going to come down, and Reuters picked up an incorrect report that it had, which was then reported by the BBC". Reuters did make this report, but it had come from a completely non-confirmed source who took the claim down almost immediately after posting it.

Basically, in all the chaos, Reuters repeated something that everyone was expecting, though from a dubious source, which BBC then reported. All in all, pretty mundane. Unless one believes the Illuminati is in the business of putting out press releases...

The Illuminati are in the business of everything....

Originally posted by Turkey Pie
Did America bring 9/11 on itself. It backed the Mujahideem against the Russians, used a very wealthy, very intelligent, media savvy warrior as a leader of this. Do you simply throw away a man like that and expect no consequences?

As a result of Osama Bin Laden's actions America and it's allies embarked on a war it could not win in the graveyard of empires and like so many others before it is leaving with its tail between its legs.

The war has had huge financial cost on the western world, at least in part leading to the financial crisis in the U.S.

Furthermore, the people of the west have been locked down through the use of this threat by their elites.

Who really has come out of this as a winner? What freedoms have you lost?

we lost what little chance we ever had of being a free country again when the patriot act was signed.

as long as we have this corrupt two party system of demopublicans and reprocrats,"a one party system designed to look like two so the sheople of americans think they have a choice in their elections,"we will always be living here in the wonderful police states of america. 💃

the war that most american dont want has devastad the economy with the government lying to americans ssaying its improving when its really getting worse and worse,thanks to Bushwacker and Obomination.they are suppose to be opposite partys and have different views yet before his inaguration, Obama said he would reverse Bush's patriot act and vote against it when he became president so what does the facist commie do? He goes and signs it to REINSTATE it.

where all that hope and change he promised? all he has done is expand and accelerate what Bushwacker got started. 🙄

Originally posted by Mr Parker
we lost what little chance we ever had of being a free country again when the patriot act was signed.

While this point has some merit, the rest is slippery slope.

Besides having an eye in the sky watching your every move, NSA listening and reading our every text if they wanted to, everything that you look at on your computer and TV being monitered by a third party and GPSs tagged to us tracking our every location around the USA. I would say we only lost our privacy.

Originally posted by Mr Parker
we lost what little chance we ever had of being a free country again when the patriot act was signed.

as long as we have this corrupt two party system of demopublicans and reprocrats,"a one party system designed to look like two so the sheople of americans think they have a choice in their elections,"we will always be living here in the wonderful police states of america. 💃

the war that most american dont want has devastad the economy with the government lying to americans ssaying its improving when its really getting worse and worse,thanks to Bushwacker and Obomination.they are suppose to be opposite partys and have different views yet before his inaguration, Obama said he would reverse Bush's patriot act and vote against it when he became president so what does the facist commie do? He goes and signs it to REINSTATE it.

where all that hope and change he promised? all he has done is expand and accelerate what Bushwacker got started. 🙄

Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with NSA surveillance. I mean, so what. They find I'm watching porn on my computer. Is that an arrestable offense? The only people afraid of govt. surveillance are the people who have things to hide from the government. It's not like if you gossip about a friend over the phone, the NSA will record your call and then tell your friend. Your secrets aren't being disclosed. I just don't see the privacy violation.

I think it is a mentality from 1984, in which police dominance was established through surveillance. While it may be true that Ingsoc had a large surveillance system, it is not the Telescreens that gave them their power. It will require far more than a NSA surveillance system to turn the US into the Stalinist dictatorship everybody thinks it's turning into.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with NSA surveillance. I mean, so what. They find I'm watching porn on my computer. Is that an arrestable offense? The only people afraid of govt. surveillance are the people who have things to hide from the government. It's not like if you gossip about a friend over the phone, the NSA will record your call and then tell your friend. Your secrets aren't being disclosed. I just don't see the privacy violation.

I think it is a mentality from 1984, in which police dominance was established through surveillance. While it may be true that Ingsoc had a large surveillance system, it is not the Telescreens that gave them their power. It will require far more than a NSA surveillance system to turn the US into the Stalinist dictatorship everybody thinks it's turning into.

I think people are worried because police states are invariably run by criminals who remain immune to the law and things that this country ideally stands for - political freedom and individual rights - may cease under a different regime. The Patriot Act removed the right to trial and allows indefinite detention for anyone presumed to be a suspect in terrorism, usually outside of the country in 'black sites'. This also allows the NSA to invade your private correspondence with the assumption that it prevents terrorism. People have all sorts of personal information available in their emails, from intimate communications to loved ones, passwords and credit card receipts, bank info, etc.

Let's put it this way: it's okay for the government to listen in on your calls, receive your text and email without a warrant specific to any wrong-doing on your part, but if a regular person perused your mail from your mailbox, he'd serve five years in a federal prison.

We are not in such dire danger every day that personal privacy should be null and void.

I understand what you are saying, the system has a lot of potential for abuse, but has it been abused. Has an NSA employee, a politician, etc. ever abused the surveillance system for their own gain? Have they arrested anybody just because the NSA found out that they have dissenting views about the govt.?

I also see what you are saying here but IDK if it is applicable. When a "regular person" hacks your information, they are usually looking to steal from you or damage your system. The NSA just looks at your email, sees if there is anything terrorist-relevant, and if not...that's it. They aren't looking to defraud you like a "regular person" would, so saying it is an equivalent "crime" is a mistake IMO.

How is your privacy being violated? What could you do in private before that you can't now? How will the government persecute you just because they heard your phone call?

Originally posted by Lestov16
I understand what you are saying, the system has a lot of potential for abuse, but has it been abused. Has an NSA employee, a politician, etc. ever abused the surveillance system for their own gain? Have they arrested anybody just because the NSA found out that they have dissenting views about the govt.?

Any time your information is compromised, a problem is evident. After all, if a private contractor like Snowden can get all this government access despite being relatively low on the totem pole, who's to say information that can compromise you personally is safe? While perfect online safety is a pipe-dream, my point is that this scouring of knowledge is both warrant-less (and therefore violates my right against unreasonable search and seizure) and potentially a risk for ID theft by some disgruntled or particularly stupid employee. God help you if an ex works at NSA or for them.

I also see what you are saying here but IDK if it is applicable. When a "regular person" hacks your information, they are usually looking to steal from you or damage your system. The NSA just looks at your email, sees if there is anything terrorist-relevant, and if not...that's it. They aren't looking to defraud you like a "regular person" would, so saying it is an equivalent "crime" is a mistake IMO.

[list]Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[/list]

Whether or not a crime is being committed, the point remains the government should not go looking for it in my personal communications for the same reason why evidence found without a warrant is not admissible in court. Violation of due-process. Additionally, this is not specified searching but mass-searching, like dragging a fish net through the water.

How is your privacy being violated? What could you do in private before that you can't now? How will the government persecute you just because they heard your phone call?

Actually, the point is on what basis could they detain me and charge me based solely on what they've heard? If I say "this government sucks, those fatcats on the hill ought to be shot. My benefits got cut, blah blah blah Obamacare blah blah hope someone frags them in their sleep", does this mean I get formally charged for what are probably blowing off steam comments meant to a friend? Can I end up in some black site being waterboarded until I break down and confess to my imaginary crimes to just make the pain stop?

That's a huge ethical concern.

I am a Salafist terrorist and I plan to blow up every city school in my district 5 hours from now by using kiddie suicide bombers with C4 in their backpacks.

Come at me, US government 🙂

Uh...

Nice knowing you bro. Gonna hide before the feds track me behind my eight proxies.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
...
Actually, the point is on what basis could they detain me and charge me based solely on what they've heard? If I say "this government sucks, those fatcats on the hill ought to be shot. My benefits got cut, blah blah blah Obamacare blah blah hope someone frags them in their sleep", does this mean I get formally charged for what are probably blowing off steam comments meant to a friend? Can I end up in some black site being waterboarded until I break down and confess to my imaginary crimes to just make the pain stop?

That's a huge ethical concern.

Actually yes. Well, I really don't know, but I think it would be best if you pack your bags and get out of town. They are coming for you, Leo...

Originally posted by Omega Vision
When people use the words "fascist" and "commie" together they demonstrate that they understand the meaning of neither.

My grandmother used to swear that Nazis were Communist, and she worked in the Army as a secretary post-WWII. Some people just love their ignorance.

The Nazis were Communist agents who sacrificed themselves in order to start a war that would make the Soviet Union super powerful. #obviousfactfornotstoopidppl.

Sounds legit.

The first step in war is the dehumanization of the enemy.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The first step in war is the dehumanization of the enemy.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Not true, the first step is jailing Pussy Riot.

For hooliganism. A guy today was arrested in Red Square for nailing his 'sack to the ground in protest as well. Let's play "Guess the Gulag Location" with him next.