Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I suggest you go over to the mace windu vs zonakin thread in the expanded universe/literature forum if you want to know about the novelization's point of view on the matter. I suggest you read the posts specifically by lucien.
I don't think you understand what I'm trying to get here.
I'm challenging you to present this argument yourself without relying on me "having heard it". You might have seen examples around where people provide not just reasoning but evidence for their positions. Nai presented exact quotes from the Revan novel; Neph posts videos even when he isn't defending a position but to help others, and I've posted comic scans to refresh people on exact wording as well.
Now, you've presented arguments here on Anakin Skywalker's inconsistent showings. Instead of deferring me, show me that you understand your own argument and provide proof.
Anakin's state of mind when fighting Dooku is completely different then when he fought Obi Wan. Here is a quote from the novelization depicting this:
"there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell. In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win."
In his fight against Obi Wan Kenobi on Mustafar, he was far from this mindset. He was emotionally plagued by his actions, which is shown in the RotS movie where he sheds a tear after killing the separatist leaders. While in both situations he wanted to kill his opponent, his emotions weren't dictating his actions against Dooku like they were against Obi Wan.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zonakin is complete bullshit if you ask me, though he was pretty out of it when he fought Kenobi.
Well there's 2 ways of looking at it.
Either a) We take Stover completely literally, in which case Skywalker was some force god when he defeated Dooku, making his whole power set into a joke. This idea of Anakin reaching those Uber godly states on rare occasions could be further supported by the Mortis trilogy in TCW.
Or b) Stover's descriptions of Skywalker's power against Dooku was all just hyperbole. And that Skywalker had simply just surpassed Dooku by this point as part of his natural progression since TCW (considering the idea now is that they were already close at that point).
Either way he must have been handicapped against Kenobi, since anyone who has even just slightly surpassed Dooku will be more on par with Windu than Kenobi. So the power difference between Skywalker and Kenobi would have just been too great.
However that clearly wasn't true by that point, seen as they were stalemated in a force push contest. The fact that as of TCW Skywalker is tanking all Dooku's force attacks, the same force attacks which dispose of ROTS Kenobi pretty easily, shows that Sith Anakin was clearly less powerful in the Force than even TCW Anakin.
I've provided passages from the ROTS novel in the Windu vs Zonneakin thread which show that Skywalker's innate fear would drown his abilities considerably, and the fear of losing Padme was sunk deep into his veins right before his fight with Kenobi.
Anakin over powered Dooku...plain and simple Makashi vs Djem So...
Dooku's style wasn't built to handle Djem So..
Dooku was surprised and shocked at Anakin's skill.
he couldn't match it,plus it was tiring him to even try to match Djem So.
I kno we agreed on the individual philosophy...
but how many times the same individuals tried to match Makashi against Djem So...and lost?
with the same mistake?
I wouldn't say natural...I would say Mastery of Form V...made the difference.
in AOTC ,he tried to use two saber Ataru,which wasn't his strong suit,Dooku saw this.and well
you kno the rest...
As for Dooku vs Mace Windu,
this ain't Sora so the FL is done, not even a factor.
the classic Makashi vs Vaapad....done
1Makashi can't handle the kinectic blows
2 Vaapad will just as easily overwhelm Makashi as well as Djem So..
back to FP,which is TK...again not even a factor Mace's TK speaks for itself....
Add shatter point to whatever object to Dooku throws w/TK and/or saber slash threw those objects or TK those objects back at him...or just simply dodge....
enter Magna Guards or any other outside interference plus a quick retreat...
FL again...no not if he likes his face,...and he does like his face....
So....imho Mace wins all three w/Mace defeating his Magna Guards,his dark jedi,and Dooku
making a very quick exit-stage right after the last dark jedi goes down....
Originally posted by juyomaster34
Anakin over powered Dooku...plain and simple Makashi vs Djem So...
Dooku's style wasn't built to handle Djem So..
Bull.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
1Makashi can't handle the kinectic blows
2 Vaapad will just as easily overwhelm Makashi as well as Djem So..
Bull Crap.
what's bull is Dooku beating Mace...
And the Bull Crap is believing someone second in command of the Jedi Order
can't use the Force...and falls to every match up every single time is the biggest
bull crap of all....
It's there read how Anakin overpowered him with Djem So....
No zone...no tricks just pure Djem So skill .....
read it and weep.....
The only thing he beat Mace in was sparring....perhaps sparring in Makashi (only)
perhaps he was Mace's motivation to refine Vaapad when he was still refining it...
who knows....
Dooku is not winning this duel....stalemate it and run away yes.....
winning lol...no.... not on his best day....
Dooku isn't even full Sith...meaning the yellow eyes or the pale skin....
Prove were Makashi can handle the brute strength of Djem So...
Or the overwhelming kinetics of Vaapad....
We did the individual thing...this about if the individual will exept his style weakness,...face defeat,..or retreat,...or die trying to match Djem So's power and domination.
Every source I find says Makashi can't handle the kinetics of both Djem So and Vaapad.
Mace is just overrated. He has just one succes - his triumph over Sidious (which many consider as not real triumph, since Palpatine threw the fight/part of the fight). His duel with Depa was a crap, his duel with Sora also was a crap, if we compare it to Dooku's duel with Sora (and Tholme). Dooku also did better against Ventress and Grievous.
His sabers skills are great, on par with Dooku's and below Yoda's. His force skills... well, not exactly.
His TK is just average. In Shatterpoint he admitted it. He also consider Tiin's TK as... stronger (actually, Mace's TK is more precise and maybe skillful, but Tiin has greater raw power).
He has some nice protects, but still, he's not as strong as Dooku. Bulq was able to force push him, while Dooku was untouchable for him.
Maybe Vaapad is a strong, kinetic form. But Mace isn't strong enough to take advantage from that. He considered his own kinetic power as nowhere close to Djem So user, Saesee Tiin (and we all know, that Anakin is even greater with his Djem So then Tiin).
Mace was unable to take advantage over Count two times: in Republic heroes and in Obsession. In this fight from RH Obi-Wan was helping him.
Dooku on the other hand is on par with Mace with sabers (in pure sabers it can goes to Mace, since Dooku may be a bit too old), but Dooku is superior with his force powers.
For me, it's between 50/50 and 55/45 for Dooku.
if you include the magna guards in both those occassions and his hasty retreat both times
if these weren't a factor I would agree with you...
The one that's overrated is Dooku...
Dooku does use the Dark Side...duh...Vaapad...
His FL or his TK won't save him...he'll run first or get help...which he does in both duels you
spoke of.....
if Dooku stop running then maybe we will have a winner...
Not strong enough to take advantage?
there is no strength in any Makashi strike...
Dooku is not strong...lol...
I wouldn't say below Yoda when neither Dooku or Yoda could defeat Sids..
His TK isn't average.....
He Force pushed Bulq
SP speaks for itself...
His FW is very powerful
His FC also... ask Grievous how that chest feel?you kno his constant coughing....
What's average were those Jedi you just mentioned...
Tiin?...lol... telepathy and piloting is his only strong suit....
Nice try....without Vaapad Dooku wins all day....with Vaapad...lol..stop playing...not gonna
happen....His running away and constant minion interference....will always save him
when Mace over powers him....again.
What's crap is believing Dooku will win 55/45?
is a joke....lol.....who saves him from Mother Talzin?
I rest my case....
Originally posted by Intrepid37
To say his telekinesis is average is ridiculous. He's not as powerful or masterful as the Count, but moving tanks and destroying battledroids with Force waves is very good.
Depends on how you're looking for that.
Palpatine and Yoda's TK is like the highest tier. Dooku's is one below, and Mace's is one below Dooku's.
Kenobi's, Bulq's TK is below average. But ok, i get your point.
Let's say, that Palpatine's and Yoda's TK is great, Dooku's is very good, Mace's is good and Kenobi's is average.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
if you include the magna guards in both those occassions and his hasty retreat both times
if these weren't a factor I would agree with you...
Yeah, in Obsession he was forced to use MGs to escape. And he escaped because a planet was almost under Republic's control. Grievous was defeated, Ventress was no match for Skywalker and Kenobi together. And on that planet were jedi like: Kolar, Fisto, Windu, Kenobi, Skywalker, Fisto, Koon, Hett.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
His FL or his TK won't save him...he'll run first or get help...which he does in both duels you
spoke of.....
Yeah, Dooku's FL wont be a problem for Mace. But I wouldn't say the same about his TK. Even Bulq was able to succesfuly push Windu onto wall. And Dooku's TK is far stronger then Bulq's.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
Dooku is not strong...lol...
Well, I didin't said, that he is. But yeah, he is. He was able to block Anakin's and Obi-Wan's sabers at the same time, with just one hand.
And he took the advantage over them after he overpowered them in sabers lock.
Stover's novel is BS, and it's opposite to movie. In the movie, Anakin was forced to use all of his power to take an advantage over Count.
Also, in the novel Dooku isn't able to fight with those two at the same time. In te movie (which means - in the canon) he was.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
His TK isn't average.....
He Force pushed Bulq
Who has terrible force defence, and is - like Kenobi - easily to defeat with the force for Count. Mace was just able to push him once (but I agree, it was very strong force push).
Originally posted by juyomaster34
His FC also... ask Grievous how that chest feel?
FC is part of TK as I remeber. And Grievous is just a machine.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
Tiin?...lol... telepathy and piloting is his only strong suit....
Tiin is one of the best order's duelists, one of the physically strongest warriors, and his TK has more raw power then Mace's. It's just a fact.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
Nice try....without Vaapad Dooku wins all day....with Vaapad...
...it's a tie.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
who saves him from Mother Talzin?
Dooku's force powers were superior to Windu's. If he wasn't able to defend himself against Talzin's magic, Mace wont be able either.
In that case, Mace's only advantage is his lack of hair... Yeah, its a joke.
Tiin, is a great pilot...
warrior...that's a joke....Sids proved Tiin was no warrior by killing him first...
The only reason he had them in a Saber lock was BC they were n't using their true style...
They feigned Ataru...remember?
Tk ing a Tank isn't good or average....or TK ing a vibro - shield that fast and stopping with in just inches of a fatal death blow? is good iyho?
it's not a tie...not even close.....
Tiin and raw power doesn't even sound right in that sentence...
maybe in Telepathy....but in physical strength is a joke...Plo Koon is above him in physical strength...second imho to Anakin....
where was this raw power against Sids?
pushing Dooku isn't hard...neither is countering his TK assaults
he'll be tired after all that TK Heavy lifting and throwing...
he was tired in ATOC against Yoda and Anakin.....
What's BS is Tiin's raw power...lol..joke...real funny... and Dooku is still not strong....
he blocked them BC they let him....
Obi Wan is not average....just not the one to defeat Dooku...
In closing your fact of raw power...in Tiin is an illusion...
If you said Anakin.... I ...we would have agreed w/you..
DR was BS....
This duel between Mace and Dooku was already done....
Besides in time Dooku will fall.... Makashi was proven in too many sources that it can't
match/let alone handle the kinectics of Djem So and Vaapad...fact...
Dooku's compensations; the DS...TK and FL....
my answer... one word...Vaapad...
I'll give you a great star fighter pilot....
raw power in telepathy...yes....best duelist...no
raw power in TK....you wish...lol..that was a joke..you mean Darth Vader...right?
I'll give RP to Vader in TK and physical strength....
Between Plo Koon,Tiin ,and Anakin.... in piloting a starfighter?
I'm still thinking...they're all Aces...
Top Ace? I don't kno....you got me on that one...
Plo Koon has more raw power than Tiin....in several areas....
Originally posted by Zett
^
Obi-Wan and Anakin weren't holding back against Dooku. It's one of Stover's BS.
This fight from ROTS novel is oposite to ROTS movie, The Rise and Fall od Darth Vader and ROTS script.And Tiin's raw power in TK [b]IS
greater then Mace's. Read Heavy Metal Jedi or give any proof. [/B]
It goes like this man; you put forth a claim (That "Tiin's raw power in TK IS greater then Mace's"😉. That places the burden of proof on you. That's how this whole thing works. Your next step is to provide written evidence (i.e. quote and source) of your claim. Until you do so, your comment carries zero validity.