Force Ghosts

Exar Kun, upon acquiring Naga Sadow's infamous Sith amulet, punches through Freedon Nadd's spirit and vanquishes him. This same spirit exerted his Force powers across the galaxy and even attacked Jedi immediately prior to all this. This is known.

But today I had an interesting thought considering Sadow and Kressh's fight for dominance, which was broken up by the spirit of Marka Ragnos. If Ragnos is so weak, why could Sadow simply not obliterate Ragnos with the same amulet? Why would he not take this opportunity to vanquish his immediate predecessor and cement his position as DLotS?

There's a lot of speculation here. It could be because he feared retaliation (although he clearly didn't fear retaliation any other time in the comic; he even fought Kressh outright on the spot for the title in front of everyone who did nothing to stop him).

It also could be because he was afraid to try. But why would this be the case? IF this is the case, THEN it seems likely one of two reasons may be the cause:

1. Sadow, even with his own amulet, is not strong enough to overcome Ragnos' spirit. Even in death, the Dark Lord is too strong. This seems to jive with what we see in JA; multiple planets needing to be completely sapped of Force power to revive him.

2. Sadow, even with his own amulet, is weaker than Kun, who has a raw Force potential bordering on Zonakin levels.

The second above assertions imply that Ragnos' spirit is at least equal to Nadd's, when in reality it seems more likely that his spirit is greater.

Thoughts?

I've thought of this before and then punched myself for overthinking star wars because really, can't we just blame the writers? The only thing they've been consistent about is inconsistency.

Right, we can harp on that all we want, but it doesn't really solve much. Since power levels are a huge part of SWVF/EU business, this topic is still relevant. I'm curious to see what anyone else actually thinks since this either says something implicitly about Kun's power, or it says something about Ragnos'. Both are contenders for top tier Sith/Force users of all time.

Could it not just be that they respected Ragnos and his authority?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Could it not just be that they respected Ragnos and his authority?

But not enough to duel at his funeral? Your point's not impossible, but again we see this same thing make Exar Kun, a runaway padawan, into a Force god. Similar situation, vastly different result. Sadow and Kressh both bow in submission.

And when he died, his presence was felt across the galaxy:

Illustrious even indicated otherwise:

Listen, the omniscient narrator says the exact words:

"Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful."

Yes, 2 definitives. Not to mention later sources mention how he has "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp on the dark side."

Freedon Nadd approaches Exar and mentions that there is "one above [him]" in reference to Marka Ragnos. This is the guy that doesn't seem to take crap from anybody.

Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh are shown making several maneuvers trying to gain power.

Ludo even usurps the title of Dark Lord when Naga leaves for the republic. That's backstabbing. In fact, they even "duel" for the title of Dark Lord. It's clear, they FIGHT for the title of dark lord. The fact Marka Ragnos did not get defeated even on his deathbed is truly remarkable.

In JA, his scepter, an integral part of the game's storyline and depicted in the cutscenes, has the power to raze temples and suck force from entire planets, and imbue non-force sensitives with force powers in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion.

Do I need to copy and paste the Sith code for you? The last line even says they value power first and foremost. Marka Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful. He "ruled the galaxy with an iron fist." Then you have dozens of lines in KotOR supporting his power. You see him crown Exar and Ulic, you see Freedon Nadd admitting his inferiority, you see Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh bowing before him. You see JA Luke pissing his pants and saying they need the "entire Jedi Academy" to "try" to stop Marka Ragnos.

No one said they can place exactly how strong he is, but they have shown without question that he has never been depicted with an equal.

Or was he just that frighteningly strong that Sadow wouldn't attempt it?

You could have at least waited a few more posts before revealing that this thread's sole purpose is to wank Ragnos.

Anyway, Neph is spot-on. The Essential Atlas confirms that reverence for the dead was an integral part of ancient Sith culture.

Kun obviously doesn't share that sentiment and ganks Nadd the second he ceases to be of use.

Which is ironic because Nadd had previously ganked Sadow in the same manner iirc. What goes around comes around I suppose. :V

Yet Kun bows before Ragnos too. Nice argument there.

This is after he just Falcon punched Nadd into oblivion, so your logic doesn't hold up here. There's absolutely no reason for Kun to bow before anyone.

Also:

Kressh seems convinced Ragnos is going to destroy Sadow even as a spirit.

Nice try though.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yet Kun bows before Ragnos too.

No, he doesn't.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nice argument there.

Yes, scoff at arguments grounded in canonical sources.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

This would be relevant if only Exar Kun were actually bowing to Ragnos somewhere in the picture.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is after he just Falcon punched Nadd into oblivion, so your logic doesn't hold up here.

You mean because Kun smoked the guy who manipulated, tortured, and taunted him and not the guy who presided over his dark coronation? What a shocker!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There's absolutely no reason for Kun to bow before anyone.

...Which is probably why he doesn't bow to anyone, Ragnos included.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kressh seems convinced Ragnos is going to destroy Sadow even as a spirit.

So what? You don't think reverence for the dead would inculcate some measure of superstition in a universe where people can move things with their mind, survive bodily destruction, and shoot energy beams from their hands?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nice try though.

I wish I could say the same. 😬

So how many times now has Janus wandered into KMC, fellatio'd the ancient sith for awhile and then wandered off after getting beaten up? hmm

I can't install a .rar extractor on a work computer, so you're welcome to peruse the comics yourself for conclusion on Kun's bowing tendencies. I may respond better when I get home.

http://swcomics.ru/index.php/comics/comru/ore.html

Also, Blax, I thought you stopped trolling when your balls dropped?

You're doing this on a work computer?

Butnoseriously, Kun doesn't bow before Ragnos.

I am shackled to my desk. And I'll double check the comic when I get home. So it could be a few hours, because I may get distracted with tv, chores, or pornvideo games.

Also, I miss the old days when we all had a common enemy.

I don't have balls- I'm a beautiful white woman irl. Surprise.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But not enough to duel at his funeral?

Hey, they're sith 🙂

Kressh seems convinced Ragnos is going to destroy Sadow even as a spirit.

Mind you, it'd be Kressh+SpiritRagnos.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I am shackled to my desk. And I'll double check the comic when I get home. So it could be a few hours, because I may get distracted with tv, chores, or pornvideo games.

Originally posted by Q99

Hey, they're sith 🙂

Mind you, it'd be Kressh+SpiritRagnos. [/B]

Kressh sounds more like an overmatched child about to hide behind his older brother, but quite possibly he would sneak attack a belabored Sadow. Point remains that Kressh believes Ragnos' disembodied spirit is enough to contain/overpower Sadow, who, as I've discovered rereading TOTJ comics, has not one but two of those amulets. Kun notes that Ulic's is the mate of his own, and Nadd's knowledge comes from Sadow entirely.

As for bowing before Ragnos, I concede that this is not entirely correct. Neither Ulic nor Kun necessarily bowed. They did, however, accept the burning, scorching marks he put on their heads and took his words without so much as a "screw you, old man". Scans below. The following are in counter clockwise orientation, since I could not easily snip the entire page without compromising the text quality:

Top Left

Bottom

Top Right

Ragnos is noted as being the reigning leader of the Sith spirits immediately prior to this. Also, something else I found which kind of surprised me:

"[...]forced into a common goal by hypnotic visions[...]"

So Ragnos basically mentally dominated both of them with the presence of his spirit? WTF.

Here's Kun breaking the holocron with his hand, btw:

Freezing the entire senate chamber:

Sadow's ship amplifies the Force power of Aleema to chuck the core of a star. I can't explain how ridiculous this is compared to say, TKing anything in existence. Other than moving the Deathstar around Alderaan, I can't think of anything comparative to such Force tech.

Regarding Neph in another thread, apparently Ossus was evacuated so no one really died there but Ood:

And lastly, the amount of Force knowledge lost on Ossus is much larger than we thought:

^ Just how much did the ancient Jedi know more than say, TOR, KotOR, or PT era Jedi? This explains why they had access to more exotic Force powers such as Sever Force, or the Wall of Light enacted by ten thousand Jedi above Yavin IV. And also why the Jedi pretty much committed genocide on the ancient Sith. While the ancient Sith were very strong, the numerous Jedi with their access to such knowledge is perhaps stronger than we've been giving them credit for as seen here.

The Supernova was caused by a spell which only effects stars, just like many Sith spells from Sith Magic is powerful but limited to only one action. It is not necessarily one's own power, not even an amp. The Book of Sith states that the Corsair amps spells and incantations, while amulets state to be able to amp your own force reserves but limited to one power, such as Kun's Dark side energy blasts. Meaning that the spell that causes supernovas can't effect anything else, otherwise Aleema would have simply destroyed Ossus if she truly had her TK amp'd that much. Also Nadd did all that before the retcon Lucas made regarding about Sith and the afterlife. The Sith were able to become force ghosts like Jedi before the Prequel era and could move anywhere in the galaxy and attack people. Now that has been retconn'd as being only available to Jedi, with the Sith having an alternative known as Essence Transfer that has to make them bind to an item. Nadd's ghost has been explained because it was not just Onderon but the planets in the system it occupies thanks to the Nadd's family casting Sith incantations across those planets and allowing a portal through them of sorts. Ragnos has no explanation other than lol he's Ragnos although the amulets might have allowed him a passageway so to speak to meet Kun and Droma.

I am so sorry, pal. But I have to agree with everyone else here that you're kinda being silly with Marka Ragnos.

I hope you can find it in your heart of hearts to forgive me for the derailing that will ensue now.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I don't have balls- I'm a beautiful white woman irl. Surprise.

You're a freakin Dolos. Played like a true Scorpio. You would have made a cunning Sithess.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The Supernova was caused by a spell which only effects stars, just like many Sith spells from Sith Magic is powerful but limited to only one action. It is not necessarily one's own power, not even an amp. The Book of Sith states that the Corsair amps spells and incantations, while amulets state to be able to amp your own force reserves but limited to one power, such as Kun's Dark side energy blasts. Meaning that the spell that causes supernovas can't effect anything else, otherwise Aleema would have simply destroyed Ossus if she truly had her TK amp'd that much. Also Nadd did all that before the retcon Lucas made regarding about Sith and the afterlife. The Sith were able to become force ghosts like Jedi before the Prequel era and could move anywhere in the galaxy and attack people. Now that has been retconn'd as being only available to Jedi, with the Sith having an alternative known as Essence Transfer that has to make them bind to an item. Nadd's ghost has been explained because it was not just Onderon but the planets in the system it occupies thanks to the Nadd's family casting Sith incantations across those planets and allowing a portal through them of sorts. Ragnos has no explanation other than lol he's Ragnos although the amulets might have allowed him a passageway so to speak to meet Kun and Droma.

The Ancient Sith Species were a lot like the Nightsisters. Mother Talzin was able to perform an incantation on Count Dooku that made him susceptible to what she did to his Voodoo doll. Doesn't mean Talzin would have a prayer against Dooku in a direct fight.

That's why it's absurd to state that Kun was approaching Zonakin. Zonakin was JA Luke levels. I would put FoTJ Luke at Dark Empire Luke when supplemented by Lea and Ben's collective Force energies, able to quickly disarm Sidious - putting FoTJ Luke far above Zonakin.

The reason I put Zonakin at the same levels as JA Luke is because the arguments brought up by Darth Power in our debates about Mace Windu Vs Zonakin. An amped Dooku did manage to momentarily get the upper hand on Yoda; and hold his own against Yoda at normal states, so Zonakin's ability to make Dooku look like he was wielding toy instead of a lightsaber implies he was right around Sidious and Yoda's levels. Vader would have been invincible if he'd accepted himself as a killing machine.

Anakin's abilities excelled at exponential rates, at one point even his Sith and Nightsister esque esoteric capabilities were put to the test on Mortis wielding far more energy than Vitiate could. As Sidious' successor, he would have certainly learned Plagueis' ability to cheat death and that would have made his power all the more lethal.