Force ghosts are considerably less powerful than their fleshy counterparts, though. The Ragnos he faced was by no means the Ragnos that ruled the Sith for more than a century.
If there was no power difference between Force ghosts and their living versions, then Exar Kun for his all power was defeated by a group of Padawans.
So, no.
And all Jedi and Sith are Force-sensitive... That's a moot point.
There's nothing that suggest spirits are less powerful, they're just not stable in the physical plane since it's much more dense. Spirits are also freer and no longer bound by the physical laws (as long as they're not dispersed).
I don't think he was at his full power either, but your arguments reek of excuses.
Originally posted by Allankles
There's nothing that suggest spirits are less powerful, they're just not stable in the physical plane since it's much more dense. Spirits are also freer and no longer bound by the physical laws (as long as they're not dispersed).I don't think he was at his full power either, but your arguments reek of excuses.
My arguments don't reek of excuses. It's only logical. It's stupid to think a full-powered in-the-flesh Exar Kun would've even struggled against a bunch of untrained Padawans. His spirit is obviously much less powerful, and the same can be said about Marka Ragnos's spirit and other notable examples.
I mean, if Sidious was equally powerful or capable as a Sith spirit then why even attempt to live on forever? If, as you say, they have the 'advantage' of no longer being bound by the limits of physical laws, why even bother? Your argument is flawed, not mine. No spirit has ever demonstrated to be as capable and powerful as their fleshy and very much alive versions, so the burden of proof is on you.
And you're contradicting yourself. You say there's nothing to suggest spirits are less powerful and then you continue by saying you don't think he was at full-power. Unless you think there's another reason other than being a spirit?
Originally posted by Allankles
And I meant he (Malak) was a fully trained Jedi, vis-a-vis, he was a skilled combatant.
And being a Jedi Knight already puts you in the elite (as far as the galaxy's warriors are concerned), it appears some people have forgotten that here.
Yeah, but in this case he's fighting other Force-sensitive elites, as you put it... So the same can be said about them. I don't see what your point is here.
Originally posted by PetrusAnd you're contradicting yourself. You say there's nothing to suggest spirits are less powerful and then you continue by saying you don't think he was at full-power. Unless you think there's another reason other than being a spirit?
I already countered your earlier statements so you're repeating yourself. I meant that when he's flesh and blood he has full access to his sceptre, as he did in the long past but while he was a spirit, he did not.
Simple. So he was indeed less powerful, doesn't mean he wasn't powerful or some choir boy version of his former self - CRIPES! He even had Tavion empowering him for an unknown amount of time.
Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, but in this case he's fighting other Force-sensitive elites, as you put it... So the same can be said about them. I don't see what your point is here.
The point I was making, is that - the point I made about Malak's skill was cool, in on itself - you didn't have to argument on it.
Originally posted by Allankles
I already countered your earlier statements so you're repeating yourself. I meant that when he's flesh and blood he has full access to his sceptre, as he did in the long past but while he was a spirit, he did not.
Simple. So he was indeed less powerful, doesn't mean he wasn't powerful or some choir boy version of his former self - CRIPES! He even had Tavion empowering him for an unknown amount of time.
I grant that the sceptre was not an innate part of Ragnos and is likely part of his reputation as a Force user in live. Without his buffs, he may be weaker. Perhaps this explains the weakness of Kun too; lack of amulets to increase his strength. It's also possible that Force spirits are a mere fraction of the being they once were, as the Force draws from life and they exist outside of it. Somewhere, possibly in TOR, it references dead Sith including Ragnos as living in a Void of sorts or some dimension of chaos and darkness. Perhaps they can only project a limited amount of their power at a time.
If Force spirits are not at all weaker than their flesh-and-blood forms, why would Tavion need to do anything to revive Ragnos? Why bother? If he was not seriously compromised, why would Luke care about Ragnos taking form again? Why would Ragnos be unable to do this himself without aid? This last point is kind of strange considering that Ragnos has materialized no less than four times across the galaxy before JA took place. You could chalk it up to general inconsistency, but the implication JA presents us with is that Ragnos needs a ritual and augmentation to take living form and reassume his old level of power. Nothing implies that his spirit was anywhere near normal strength.
You're getting caught up in details. There are so many permutations to how a Spirit being can threaten a mortal, imperil him, doom him and ultimately kill him.
He wanted to be flesh and blood for the first time in 5000 long years: you bet your bottom dollar the Jedi would be scared.
The only great difference is he's not stable in the physical plane without a physical body. His astral form just isn't stable enough, and despite his presence in the force, he can easily be dispersed still, by the physical living force user.
No he couldn't. And no he wouldn't. Normal Force attacks do ****all to spirits and just pass right through them:
18.20
3.20
Nice power in that lightning btw. Thats going in Nox' respect thread.
If Ragnos had wanted to, he could likely have easily killed Jaden as a spirit and there wouldn't have been anything he could do about it. I'm not even sure if you can defend against them with regular Force defenses. If lightning just passes through them.....
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Perhaps they can only project a limited amount of their power at a time.
Kind of. Kallig says its very costly to actually do stuff as a spirit and says a few times that he'll need to recover after doing stuff. At the least I know he says its hard for him to materialise on your ship that time he visits you there.
But their power seems unaffected to me. They are still really powerful, just highly limited in ways that make being corporeal obviously worth it.
Originally posted by Allankles
I already countered your earlier statements so you're repeating yourself. I meant that when he's flesh and blood he has full access to his sceptre, as he did in the long past but while he was a spirit, he did not.
Simple. So he was indeed less powerful, doesn't mean he wasn't powerful or some choir boy version of his former self - CRIPES! He even had Tavion empowering him for an unknown amount of time.
I countered back, you just chose to ignore it. And I only said they were much less powerful, not that spirits weren't powerful at all. It's just that you said this:
Originally posted by Allankles
There's nothing that suggest spirits are less powerful,
And then:
Originally posted by Allankles
So he was indeed less powerful,
So yeah.
And as Neph has said, they are indeed powerful, but what I meant by what I said is exactly that: they are much more limited as Force spirits, and thus, aren't as powerful. Limited = not as powerful as in the flesh. Or better said, not nearly as efficient combatwise.
Civil disagreement.😉 Agreement to disagree.
The Force is magic already, you don't need to sophistize it with D&D style gimmickos.
Plus the NJO would have a deep understanding of the quantum and relative dynamics of the force, they are afterall also more tech based and booksmart than some of the oldies.
Some part of Ragnos would have respected the young Kor, for both his bravery and his still prevailing bit of innocence. It might have been like seeing a young Tenebrous again, except a non evil version.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not even sure if you can defend against them with regular Force defenses. If lightning just passes through them.....
Actually Neph, it looks like you might be right. In the Inquisitor campaign, when asked how to get past an angry ghost, Ergast says that there is no defense against death, which sounds to my ears like an admission that you can't really defend against them.
As usual, your intuition and beauty astounds me. My compliments. <3