Poll
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Darth Sion vs. Darth Maul
Location: The Star Forge, where Revan and Malak fought.
Special Note: All out battle, the brain dead Jedi that were locked in the various nearby pods are there to be drained if need be by the duelists. Darth Sion doesn't need to be Dun Moch'd to death, he can be incapacitated. Anyways, who shall win!?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
what "more impressive force abilities" has sion shown, exactly? Other than immortality, which isnt used in this thread.
IIRC, he knows Force drain and he and his assassins passively drain other Force users.
What would be required to icap him, OP? He could use his intense rage and will to keep his body together from the thousands of breaks, cuts, and fatal wounds, possibly with some kind of subconscious TK. The weakest stance is defending his saber talent; Maul is a verifiable expert while Sion just basically owns everyone except for Meetra who talks him down in the end. The latter isn't shown much in live saber fights though but just gameplay fights.
Stims and mines ftw.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
IIRC, he knows Force drain and he and his assassins passively drain other Force users.What would be required to icap him, OP? He could use his intense rage and will to keep his body together from the thousands of breaks, cuts, and fatal wounds, possibly with some kind of subconscious TK. The weakest stance is defending his saber talent; Maul is a verifiable expert while Sion just basically owns everyone except for Meetra who talks him down in the end. The latter isn't shown much in live saber fights though but just gameplay fights.
Stims and mines ftw.
Well said.
If the opponent is stronger in the force he could keep killing him but you can't keep defending yourself against him with your saber skills. Sith at much higher level than Maul would survive Sion only.
Check this: Sion doesn't even try again cause he knows he can't win. It wouldn't be the same with Maul.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
IIRC, he knows Force drain and he and his assassins passively drain other Force users.What would be required to icap him, OP? He could use his intense rage and will to keep his body together from the thousands of breaks, cuts, and fatal wounds, possibly with some kind of subconscious TK. The weakest stance is defending his saber talent; Maul is a verifiable expert while Sion just basically owns everyone except for Meetra who talks him down in the end. The latter isn't shown much in live saber fights though but just gameplay fights.
Stims and mines ftw.
I always thought Sion being beheaded would be a good incapacitation route.
Originally posted by Based
I'm pretty sure Sion hasn't force drained anybody.
Kreia says that the new Sith of the Triumvirate passively drain Force users when the Sith assassins and Sion are found aboard the Republic ship off of Peragus. Given the wound-like nature of the demonstrated powers of Nihilus and Traya and this testimony, it's likely if not conclusive that Sion does this enough to weaken his prey.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
We're not sure just how strong his control over his body is though or if Maul would be able to do that in combat or would think to do it in combat.Sion is kind of broken and should not be in versus matches for that reason.
Not really. Even on Malachor V, Sion was struggling to revive himself in his battle with the Exile. And that is prior to Exile talking him into letting go.
Striking him down enough should be able to end him once and for all.
Originally posted by ares834
Not really. Even on Malachor V, Sion was struggling to revive himself in his battle with the Exile. And that is prior to Exile talking him into letting go.Striking him down enough should be able to end him once and for all.
Erm, Meetra's talking to him sporadically throughout the fight and as his resolve is weakening because of his canonical affection for the female Exile and jealousy of her status as Kreia's favored pupil, he eventually gives up and presumably falls apart. Meetra is basically Sion's shatterpoint.
I recall that Dark Side nexus locations like Korriban and Malachor V actually empowered his rage and pain that fueled his regeneration, and it was his feelings for Meetra that ultimately undid him. There's also I believe some quotes in the Old Republic sourcebook, but it's at home so I can't confirm anything at the moment.
Yes, but it was only at the end that the Exile talked him into letting go of his rage and thus die. Prior to that he was still clinging on to his rage and therefore was capable of reviving himself albeit with more and more difficulty.
Whether or not she was weakening his resolve throughout the fight is, I believe, never substandard on. And, it's unknown if that would even make it more difficult to revive himself.
Originally posted by ares834
Yes, but it was only at the end that the Exile talked him into letting go of his rage and thus die. Prior to that he was still clinging on to his rage and therefore was capable of reviving himself albeit with more and more difficulty.
Final Fight Video for Reference
~1:50, Sion proclaims this:
"As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I cannot be killed".
This is the first interlude, and prior to this Sion has not shown any signs of fatigue, weakness, or anything else related. The Exile is given a dialogue choice, and then combat resumes.
~2:53, Sion states this:
"You are strong... as strong as I had believed. But she knows you cannot defeat me." He then turns his saber off and says: "Surrender now, return to the surface of Malachor... do not force me to destroy you." This is perhaps the third time already he has implored the Exile to not die at his hand, including the prefight discussion. The Exile is given another dialogue choice, to further weaken his resolve, to which he replies and she is then given yet another dialogue choice, and then after Sion replies a third choice is allowed.
Here is a gem from Sion's last reply:
"If you go before her, you will be broken. If killing you will spare you what lies ahead, then kill you I must..."
The fight resumes.
Slightly related, Sion uses Force Drain in combat. While it is a game mechanic style feat, it does have some lore basis.
~5:17, dialogue resumes. Sion seems resigned to dying, and is more receptive to the Exile's words. Sion is mechanically weakened via the dialogue choice.
At some point, he says this:
"I can die a hundred times, Exile, and still I will rise again, as strong as before."
Combat then resumes.
~6:30, Sion actually stumbles, and is assumed knocked down or possibly fatally wounded. He then stands up again and proclaims:
"I will not fall. I can not die."
The Exile is given another dialogue choice. Based on the choice, Sion seems to feel despair, which weakens him and he falls to his knees again. The Exile is able to coerce him fully at this point, and he remains weakened, vulnerable. At one point, he says this regarding Kreia:
"Her weakness... is you. As you were mine. I will glad to leave this place... at last."
Then he makes the conscious decision to die.
So yeah, it's all plot-induced here. His emotional attachment to the Exile is explicitly his weakness here, otherwise he seems very capable of reviving as often as is needed. His bones are fractured thousands of times, his skin is held together as it decays, and by all rights he is clinically dead.
I've already agree that the Exile ends up talking into dying that point is not in contention. What is, is whether or not Sion is capable of repeatedly reviving himself in a short span of time. That he did so many times in the past does not refute this as we do not know the span of time between resurrections.
As for the weakness, he displays such weakness thought the fight regardless of what dialogue choices are chosen. This suggests that what the Exile is saying is fairly irrelevant to the difficuly he display when repeatedly reviving himself. That, plus the fact that he was unwilling to challenge his superiors such as Kun and Malak, make it seem that a capable enough warrior would be able to strike Sion down enough times to end him once and for all.
Originally posted by ares834
I've already agree that the Exile ends up talking into dying that point is not in contention. What is, is whether or not Sion is capable of repeatedly reviving himself in a short span of time. That he did so many times in the past does not refute this as we do not know the span of time between resurrections.
What we do know:
[list][*] Sion has been damaged thousands of times and clings to life.
[*] Sion is capable of maintaining rotten dried flesh, fractured bone, and atrophied sinews into something that can outfight and kill Jedi Masters.
[*] Sion has never stayed dead, but he has canonically died and come back to life. He did this first during the Great Sith Wars.
[*] The only time Sion ceased to resurrect is when he wants to, and at the repeated behest of canonically Light Side female Exile, whom he is in a sense infatuated with and whom he in a sick way tried to protect from Kreia.
[*] At no point is Sion in danger of being permanently slain by a lightsaber and Force-wielding opponent except for the likes of Nihilus (cosmic level Force wound) and Traya (who can kill three Jedi masters with a wave of her hand).
[*] No lore suggests that Sion could just be outfought or sabered in half and be done with it.[/list]
This isn't to suggest he could take a nuke or anything. He's not quite Wolverine but he's the closest damn thing SW has, and everything points to his ability to resurrect as being indicative of his will and not the martial ability of his enemy.
Hell, we can't even be certain Sion can be bisected or maimed, since he maintains his full body despite all the damage it has sustained and all the attacks he endures. Imagine Maul slashing or stabbing him, and then realizing the guy won't die, and then Sion steps forward and murders Maul in the moment of confusion like he did to probably dozens of other Force users over the course of about 42 years.
As for the weakness, he displays such weakness thought the fight regardless of what dialogue choices are chosen. This suggests, that what the Exile is saying is fairly irrelevant to his difficulty of reviving himself.
No, the idea of the Exile being his weakness is consistent, and canonically the Exile is both female and Light Side, which means that he was both infatuated with her and she would seek to choose benevolent dialogue choices.
That, plus the fact that he was unwilling to challenge his superiors such as Kun and Malak, make it seem that a capable enough warrior would be able to strike Sion down enough times to end him once and for all.
Sion was not at his peak during the Great Sith Wars, and was likely not a threat to Kun in any case. Even peak Sion probably would be undone, because Kun's level of rage and power are arguably higher and his knowledge of Sith techniques is implicitly higher. As for Malak, this is less clear. Sion seems to have been swept up in the furor of Revan's anti-Jedi crusade and was otherwise uninterested in ultimate power. He just wanted to kill the Jedi and cause pain, and perhaps this explains why he didn't attempt to challenge either Sith lord. Sion built no empires nor temples, he just buried Jedi.
But assuming weakness because of different motives is flawed in this case. Sion's measurable peak is as of TSL, and in that setting he is able to reassemble at will, and only chooses to die; he is not slain outright or cut into mincemeat and fed into a grinder. I've argued that he is a broken character in these debates because the full extent of his ability to hold together is not established, but it is certainly higher than being chopped a few times.