WBH Vs Kurse

Hulk

Originally posted by LGU
They said that Foom was "too powerful to move" against his will but then Monica immediately decided (and eventually did, successfully) wish to teleport the Hulk back from the Dark Dimension - presumably against his will as he had finally found an eternal peace of sorts there.

Unless Foom was suddenly vastly more powerful than the Hulk, the only interpretation consistent with all the evidence is that all the references to "Hercs" in that issue referred to the mystic wishing energy. Hence, Monica with 0.53 Hercs was unable to BFR Foom, with 17.34 Hercs, but was able to teleport Hulk who only had 0.21 Hercs. Hulk with 0.21 Hercs was able to effectively undo everything because his wish gave "everyone what they wanted" rather than trying to force it against their will.

Cheers.

There's also the issue that arises under your logic where she could only stop two missiles with her wish, yet she can take both of the Hulks out of the Dark Dimension.
Which is either explained by bad writing, or she wasn't just trying to BFR things, she was trying to stop them completely.

Either way you go however, something doesn't add up.

Want to get a rough estimate of Hulk's strength during HOTM, just go by the 1000x Wendigo/BiBeast measure.

That's an explicit and unequivocal standard given, with characters who have a history of fighting Savage Hulk.

What happened between Hulk/Betty and She-Hulk/A-Bomb wasn't in anyway a reflection of their relative power-levels. As Hulk's wish - which anchored the whole HoTM scenario - was to fight all his enemies, over and over again with no need to hold back.

At the very least at "WBH levels", he was outputting thousands of times as much power as when he almost broke the continent with a step.

Even at that point, he was clearly far above any herald, with enough energy to fuel an army of Rulks (including the original Rulk) and to "Hulk out" all the heroes.

Originally posted by janus77
Want to get a rough estimate of Hulk's strength during HOTM, just go by the 1000x Wendigo/BiBeast measure.

That's an explicit and unequivocal standard given, with characters who have a history of fighting Savage Hulk.

What happened between Hulk/Betty and She-Hulk/A-Bomb wasn't in anyway a reflection of their relative power-levels. As Hulk's wish - which anchored the whole HoTM scenario - was to fight all his enemies, over and over again with no need to hold back.

At the very least at "WBH levels", he was outputting thousands of times as much power as when he almost broke the continent with a step.

Even at that point, he was clearly far above any herald, with enough energy to fuel an army of Rulks (including the original Rulk) and to "Hulk out" all the heroes.

I'm not saying they were close to Hulk on their own, I'm saying with massive amps they were close.

Thousands of times as much power...

Oh yeah, I think he was clearly above any herald, no question. At least twice as strong as Kurse isn't me saying he's weak. It's just getting somewhat of a rough estimate.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Bi Beast/Wendigo weren't amped though by the time they went to the Dark Dimension. Although Hulk being strong enough to kill two beings thousands of times stronger than Savage with shockwaves puts him somewhere close to abstract level...

I'm not saying they were close to Hulk on their own, I'm saying with massive amps they were close.

Thousands of times as much power...

Oh yeah, I think he was clearly above any herald, no question. At least twice as strong as Kurse isn't me saying he's weak. It's just getting somewhat of a rough estimate.

The other feat is vague and too brief to actually facilitate such feats of inference-drawing.

when they were amped a thousand fold he owned them in a lesser state:

But with bi beast and Wendigos massive amps they were clearly outperformed by a holding back Green- Scar..while on earth. WBH at the heights in the Dark dimension we know was far stronger than he was on earth at the time he fought them because he stopped holding back entirely.

Also I don't see there being much basis with which come to the conclusion that Fing Fang foom as he was amped on earth was more powerful than Hulk in the Dark dimension....let alone using his subsequent interaction with Abomb and she hulk as well as stated herc output to then estimate WBh strength level. Several of the key assumptions that would be necessary are quite simply entirely unsupported.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
But under what I believe, Foom was more powerful than Hulk. Judging by how many gamma bombs he was eating, which was at least 10.

I think that's a very tough sell based on the available evidence but okay.

There's also the issue that arises under your logic where she could only stop two missiles with her wish, yet she can take both of the Hulks out of the Dark Dimension.
Which is either explained by bad writing, or she wasn't just trying to BFR things, she was trying to stop them completely.

I don't think that's an issue with the interpretation I went with above.

It was stated that Monica could stop the two gamma bombs heading their way. That wasn't the problem. The bombs weren't the real issue; if she had wished them away, then she would have no wish energy left and they would still have Foom left to deal with who could just fire more gamma bombs at them. She couldn't wish Foom away because he still had wish energy of his own, and more of it. That's why it made more sense to send Jen and Rick to stop the missiles and fight Foom, and when that didn't work, for her to use the single remaining wish on the nuclear option: the Hulk.

Either way you go however, something doesn't add up.

There was plenty of bad writing to be found - it's hard to believe that the same man who wrote Planet Hulk ended his run with inexplicably Godzilla-sized growing Hulks. But I actually think the mechanism behind the wish energy is pretty consistent across the issue.

Cheers.

Originally posted by janus77
And I'm just saying that there is a clear and reasonable route for making such an estimate with the quantified standards depicted in the comic.

The other feat is vague and too brief to actually facilitate such feats of inference-drawing.

The only other way would be to assume how much strength it takes to kill all those Savage Hulk level beings with shockwaves. Somewhere above 8 times all Herc can output in a punch?

Like I said, I'm speculating, but trying to build a rough basis.

they apparently died when they were punched into the troyjan ship

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
There isn't actually. Unless we assume the tiny Bi-Beast/Wendigo are the same as the giant Wendigo/Bi-Beast.

The only other way would be to assume how much strength it takes to kill all those Savage Hulk level beings with shockwaves. Somewhere above 8 times all Herc can output in a punch?

Like I said, I'm speculating, but trying to build a rough basis.

So, instead of speculating from nothing, why not take what the comic says and use that as a quantifiable base. WBH >= 2000 x regular Wendigo/BiBeast.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
when they were amped a thousand fold he owned them in a lesser state:

Still doesn't make them amped a "thousand times" in a lesser state though.

Originally posted by LGU
I think that's a very tough sell based on the available evidence but okay.

I don't think that's an issue with the interpretation I went with above.

It was stated that Monica could stop the two gamma bombs heading their way. That wasn't the problem. The bombs weren't the real issue; if she had wished them away, then she would have no wish energy left and they would still have Foom left to deal with who could just fire more gamma bombs at them. She couldn't wish Foom away because he still had wish energy of his own, and more of it. That's why it made more sense to send Jen and Rick to stop the missiles and fight Foom, and when that didn't work, for her to use the single remaining wish on the nuclear option: the Hulk.

There was plenty of bad writing to be found - it's hard to believe that the same man who wrote Planet Hulk ended his run with inexplicably Godzilla-sized growing Hulks. But I actually think the mechanism behind the wish energy is pretty consistent across the issue.

Cheers.

And if her stopping two nukes takes up all her wishing power, then why would she be able to remove Hulk/SRulk from another dimension? It doesn't quite add up.

Also, again, it wasn't stated it was the mystical energy that made Foom too hard to move. It was stated that he was just too powerful to move. Yet, if we believe Hulk was more powerful than Foom... actually, my memory is hazy, but I don't remember Foom ever getting that much of the Wishing Well's power. Is it possible you have scans explaining before hand how much energy he acquired?

Not sure I can agree that the wish energy part was pretty consistent.

Anyway, I take it everyone has a severe problem with Hulk only being 8 times as strong as Hercules? Curious what the acceptable amount Hulk is supposed to be more powerful than Hercules then...

No, I think most people just have a 'problem' with the pointless - and irrational - speculation when you have the comic giving you explicit numbers to quantify a base-level.

FFF's wish was to have sufficient power to conquer the world. He was granted it. The catch was that he no longer had the brains to control that power, which is how he fell into the hands of Tyrannus. When he escapes to Earth, he is still at that amped level of power.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

And if her stopping two nukes takes up all her wishing power, then why would she be able to remove Hulk/SRulk from another dimension? It doesn't quite add up.

I think it is just that any wish would have taken the same amount of energy; there was nothing in the story to suggest that wishes of different magnitude required different amounts of wish energy.

Also, again, it wasn't stated it was the mystical energy that made Foom too hard to move. It was stated that he was just too powerful to move. Yet, if we believe Hulk was more powerful than Foom... actually, my memory is hazy, but I don't remember Foom ever getting that much of the Wishing Well's power.

IMHO you are putting too much emphasis on one interpretation of a fairly loosely worded sentence which can be interpreted in a number of ways.

For starters, a "Herc" was very explicitly a unit of mystical energy; it was never in any context used to describe any other type of power. The machine used to read both Monica and Foom's "Herc" readings was thus designed very specifically to calculate mystical energy.

Whilst it isn't explicitly stated that Foom being "too powerful" to move is due to his mystic wish energy, the way that conversation flows it doesn't really need to. We are explicitly told that the device is measuring Monica's mystic wish energy, and then immediately after this number is compared to Foom's reading using the same device and unit of measurement. There's no need to say they are reading mystic wish energy when dealing with Monica and then repeat what the device is measuring 10 words later; that would be redundant and awkward dialogue.

As such, it makes perfect sense for the "too powerful" to be moved comment to be a reference to Foom having more wish energy left than Monica. And, as elaborated on above, that interpretation fits better with the rest of the scene, in that Monica is then able to move the Hulks who are also presumably above 0.51 Hercs if it isn't just measuring mystic energy.

Cheers.

Originally posted by janus77
No, I think most people just have a 'problem' with the pointless - and irrational - speculation when you have the comic giving you explicit numbers to quantify a base-level.

FFF's wish was to have sufficient power to conquer the world. He was granted it. The catch was that he no longer had the brains to control that power, which is how he fell into the hands of Tyrannus. When he escapes to Earth, he is still at that amped level of power.

Originally posted by LGU
I think it is just that any wish would have taken the same amount of energy; there was nothing in the story to suggest that wishes of different magnitude required different amounts of wish energy.

IMHO you are putting too much emphasis on one interpretation of a fairly loosely worded sentence which can be interpreted in a number of ways.

For starters, a "Herc" was very explicitly a unit of mystical energy; it was never in any context used to describe any other type of power. The machine used to read both Monica and Foom's "Herc" readings was thus designed very specifically to calculate mystical energy.

Whilst it isn't explicitly stated that Foom being "too powerful" to move is due to his mystic wish energy, the way that conversation flows it doesn't really need to. We are explicitly told that the device is measuring Monica's mystic wish energy, and then immediately after this number is compared to Foom's reading using the same device and unit of measurement. There's no need to say they are reading mystic wish energy when dealing with Monica and then repeat what the device is measuring 10 words later; that would be redundant and awkward dialogue.

As such, it makes perfect sense for the "too powerful" to be moved comment to be a reference to Foom having more wish energy left than Monica. And, as elaborated on above, that interpretation fits better with the rest of the scene, in that Monica is then able to move the Hulks who are also presumably above 0.51 Hercs if it isn't just measuring mystic energy.

Cheers.

A Herc was what things that were mythological in origin were measured by. And the full power of a Hercules punch. Hercules isn't too much mystical energy to my recollection.
Or Pak just gave up...

Except that's what Pak did the whole story. Hell, the same comic he had them say that She-Hulk and A-Bomb had absorbed the gamma bombs or have to absorb them about 5 times. He had them talk about the exact amount of wishing energy Betty, Banner, and Monica had, and even attributed the Hercs to wishing energy. The only one he didn't do that for was Foom.
Redundant and awkward dialogue though... Pak.

Anyway, like I said, I haven't read the series in a while outside the last issue, but why would Foom have had so much more Wishing Well power than the rest of them?

Anyway, decent discussion if I don't get back to this. At least one person doesn't get angry at a discussion. 👆

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Then she should have been able to stop all the nukes using that logic.

There were only two nukes heading towards them, which again it was noted that she could have stopped with her wish.

Also, it took Betty .13 herc energy to give Hulk what he wanted.

True. The energy level each wish expended definitely wasn't internally consistent. But it seemed like anything under 1 Herc was enough for one wish and one wish only.

A Herc was what things that were mythological in origin were measured by. And the full power of a Hercules punch. Hercules isn't too much mystical energy to my recollection.

A Hercules punch was the measurement scale, but the "Herc" measurement was always used to measure the energy "radiated" by "objects and entities with genuine mythological power", i.e. magic energy. The woman who designed the scale and the measurement device was a specialist in the study of magic artifacts.

Except that's what Pak did the whole story. Hell, the same comic he had them say that She-Hulk and A-Bomb had absorbed the gamma bombs or have to absorb them about 5 times. He had them talk about the exact amount of wishing energy Betty, Banner, and Monica had, and even attributed the Hercs to wishing energy. The only one he didn't do that for was Foom.
Redundant and awkward dialogue though... Pak.

I'm not saying his dialogue is perfect, but the examples you listed are all slightly different. The Foom reading is literally the very next speech bubble to us being given Monica's reading of magic energy. The two readings are deliberately stood next to each other as a direct comparison.

Anyway, like I said, I haven't read the series in a while outside the last issue, but why would Foom have had so much more Wishing Well power than the rest of them?

More surface area to get splashed by the wishing well? There's certainly no explicit explanation for this part, but then most characters involved made multiple wishes during the course of the story-line and, as far as we know, Foom only made one.

Anyway, decent discussion if I don't get back to this. At least one person doesn't get angry at a discussion. 👆

That's my secret Cap... I'm always angry...

Cheers.

Hulk eats him.