Originally posted by Intrepid37
The author of the book says he can't, and everytime he has done it succesfully, he has been aided by preparation, but he can just because you say so?🙄
Hint: Vitiate gave a slight mental brush to Scourge on moment's notice and Scourge was on the ground.
Scourge was a powerful individual by the way.
Revan resisted second time because he was 100% prepared to do so (had developed a countermeasure for this purpose). Prior to this, Vitiate broke him with "a fraction of his power."
Originally posted by Intrepid37
To claim the opposite of the author himself is not only stupid, it is unsupported.
Have you even checked the revelations of Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia?
This source contradicts the novel on several points. It is this source which revealed that Vitiate broke the duo of Revan and Malak with "a fraction of his power."
As I pointed out before, Mr. Drew is not the only author who defines characters. His characters can be further defined by other authors.
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Also, we should be careful with what Mr. Drew says unofficially.
If you ask him that "who can beat who" or "who is more powerful" through private communication, his typical unofficial response is that that anybody can win or loose in a combat situation.
This means that weak can defeat powerful in combat? Nice escape attempt from Mr. Drew.
In his official works, however, Mr. Drew very much likes to establish power levels of characters and does not feels hesitant to assert that who is unlikely to win against whom.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Really? A few weeks ago you changed your name from Dolos to Oneness and had a War and Peace length homage to Anakin Skywalker in your profile. Your signatures and avatars have been referencing him in some way. I'm expecting next you have Shmi Skywalker tattoo'd on your heart.
That's called being a fan of that character. Biasm comes when allow your fanhood to hinder your ability to accept the truth.
Your asserion
That's not a real word. Do you mean to say my *asinine assertions?
that the novels
The 7 novelizations Lucas wrote after making the scripts for his films and were released before the films - the whole reason for the novelizations was to tell a more in depth story.
are a more complete picture is utter BS. LFL states that in canon conflicts, the most recent versions are deemed [b]superior and more consistent with GL's vision, [/b]
Yea, except to my knowledge Lucas has never come out to deny anything from novels. He's given examples of differences, listed in the LFL article that you linked.
and furthermore that stuff originating from authors in novelizations is C-canon. Checkmate, bro.
Only if Lucas denies that this or this happened. Which wouldn't make any sense pertaining to these novelizations he had a very heavy part in shaping. But perhaps the author will have misinterpreted him? What example do you have this contradictory claim made by GL?
I challenge you to address that with something else besides your skewed opinion.
I don't think my understanding is not skewed by my fanaticism.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
But according to yourself, Revan can destroy buildings because Drew say so.
Revan is officially recognized as an extraordinarily powerful Force-user so their is lot of room for creative liberties with him accordingly in canon.
Revan pulled down some asteroids on the platform of a space station to disorient or possibly crush the Imperial Strike Team which was sent to assassinate him, an indication of his amazing telekinetic prowess. Maybe Revan is capable of doing more, who knows.
In case of Vitiate's powers, we have multiple canon sources to consult and draw conclusion from. Not doing so is foolishness.
I finally got around to reading all of this and (obviously) I can't agree with your final assertion that the Hero only beat him through luck and the will of the Force:
As you said, the Hero grew more powerful after her first confrontation with Vitiate, in part because of the training that Vitiate himself had the Hero go through while under his control (whoops). Just because Vitiate beat her the first time doesn't mean its not possible for her to improve and defeat him later (Anakin vs Dooku).
Yeah, Scourge gave the Hero info on him, but Vitiate fought the Hero while possessing Kira, watched her fight with Scourge and probably got well acquainted with her own strengths and weaknesses while she was under his mental control and training on his Fortress (through reading her mind or just observations in training).
I've made my case for why him being weakened doesn't diminish the feat of defeating him elsewhere. Other than that, I don't see how it was any more plot-related or how the Force directly influenced the battle in the HoT's favor.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I finally got around to reading all of this and (obviously) I can't agree with your final assertion that the Hero only beat him through luck and the will of the Force:As you said, the Hero grew more powerful after her first confrontation with Vitiate, in part because of the training that Vitiate himself had the Hero go through while under his control (whoops). Just because Vitiate beat her the first time doesn't mean its not possible for her to improve and defeat him later (Anakin vs Dooku).
Yeah, Scourge gave the Hero info on him, but Vitiate fought the Hero while possessing Kira, watched her fight with Scourge and probably got well acquainted with her own strengths and weaknesses while she was under his mental control and training on his Fortress (through reading her mind or just observations in training).
I've made my case for why him being weakened doesn't diminish the feat of defeating him elsewhere. Other than that, I don't see how it was any more plot-related or how the Force directly influenced the battle in the HoT's favor.
Revan's powers didn't diminish on Dromund Kaas. Same is true for Meetra.
Also, Vitiate was temporarily vulnerable during his second encounter with HoT. The game itself confirms this (information mentioned in the analysis). This is how the story is.
Scourge guides HoT in this respect. He understands when to attack Vitiate and HoT is the candidate who can do the job.
Otherwise, HoT would never have needed Scourge at all. The whole point of Scourge's betrayal is that he have figured out a way to undermine Vitiate.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^Thanks for your remarks. But the point is that if HoT's powers were diminished in the Dark Temple, how come he was able to knock out so many Jedi level opponents inside?
Revan's powers didn't diminish on Dromund Kaas. Same is true for Meetra.
Also, Vitiate was temporarily vulnerable (weakened from interruption from his ritual) during his second encounter with HoT. The game itself confirms this (information mentioned in the analysis). This is how the story is.
Scourge guides HoT in this respect. He understands when to attack Vitiate and HoT is the candidate who can do the job.
Otherwise, HoT would never have needed Scourge at all. The whole point of Scourge's betrayal is that he have figured out a way to undermine Vitiate.
The HoT is just that good. She's still well above them even weakened. Meetra killed dozens of Sith Lords on Malachor despite being similarly weakened.
Because Dromund Kaas is either an extremely weak nexus, or not even a nexus at all. It doesn't compare to the Dark Temple, that drove thousands of slaves insane just from working near it and has so much darkside energy in the air that blasters are disabled near it.
Yes I know he was. He was greatly weakened. But as I've pointed out, Scourge says he's recovering fast and he has the energy of the Dark Temple to draw on.
True, but attacking at the right time doesn't diminish the feat. At any other time the Emperor is too well protected to get to without effort that would screw the HoT over in a fight. They can't beat a fresh Vitiate after fighting through his forces.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The HoT is just that good. She's still well above them even weakened. Meetra killed dozens of Sith Lords on Malachor despite being similarly weakened.
This is similar to how Malgus & Co. performed inside the Jedi Temple of Coruscant. Malgus and other Sith weren't weakened inside the Jedi Temple, they had learned to cope well with various environments. In-fact, Malgus tore down several columns of the Jedi Temple and killed many Jedi inside with his powers and skills.
Now this doesn't implies that every Jedi would have been fit in places strong in the dark side. Majority would not be (including Luke Skywalker). Revan, HoT and Meetra are special cases in the sense that they acquired the talent to resist the negative influence of strong dark side presence.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Dromund Kaas is either an extremely weak nexus, or not even a nexus at all. It doesn't compare to the Dark Temple, that drove thousands of slaves insane just from working near it and has so much darkside energy in the air that blasters are disabled near it.Yes I know he was. He was greatly weakened. But as I've pointed out, Scourge says he's recovering fast and he has the energy of the Dark Temple to draw on.
True, but attacking at the right time doesn't diminish the feat. At any other time the Emperor is too well protected to get to without effort that would screw the HoT over in a fight. They can't beat a fresh Vitiate after fighting through his forces.
Also, Vitiate had briefly disciplined all of the dark forces inside the Dark Temple, otherwise his Imperial Guard would have fallen victim to such forces.
HoT took this opportunity to slip inside, thanks to guidance of Scourge.
This is the point:
You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.
Now, tremendous power was still required to stop Vitiate even during this moment of vulnerability. HoT was the only candidate valid for this job.
Scourge was being impatient.
I think Vitiate far less than he had been in his original body during his battle with HoT. I concede HoT was weakened but:
The powers obtained from Force drain are not constant. Nihilus lost some energy just from trying to Force drain Meetra Surik, who was another wound, and lost his power totally when Visas Marr sacrificed herself - it seems like sustaining too much damage or using too much energy can negate the strength gained by Force drain as well, seen by Sith who used it throughout the Inquisitor class.
Also, I think DE Sidious had lost most of it just by switching bodies - though he still had his original gargantuan power level, enough to best a dark side Luke in their first duel - but compassion amped DE Luke off Byss>>dark side DE Luke on Byss.
I'd go as far to say that, while death strengthened Sidious' natural power level; his nexus powers had greatly diminished in the destruction of the Second Death Star.
This makes perfect sense of you consider that he grew stronger as the Jedi order grew weaker, and as the balance shifted toward the dark side, and culminate that with his powers steadily rising throughout the Dark Times series - culminating in his feats in EaW: Forces Corruption, which occurred in between ESB and RoTJ. Perhaps Sidious was stronger than we thought in RoTJ - more than his natural power level, which was 20% greater than Vader's.
In fact, Vjun enhanced Dooku great enough to challenge Yoda for a while before claiming that Yoda would defeat the Emperor if he gave into the dark side (suggesting Yoda's natural power level was beyond Sidious'😉.
I'm trying to bring some order here.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
But Drew's statement does?
Revan's capability to collapse buildings with his telekinetic abilities is not subject to similar critical evaluation because this is something that have not been discussed in canon sources. This is just additional information about his telekinetic abilities but still not something confirmed officially. In contrast, multiple sources provide information about Vitiate's telepathic abilities and all of that information should be taken in to consideration.
What we know about Revan at the moment is not necessarily a reflection of the full extent of his capabilities. Same is true for Vitiate.
Some years ago (when Revan was a game character), nobody had an idea that Revan could heal his wounds without need of medical attention, catch Sith lightning with bare hands like Yoda, was more powerful then any Jedi up to his time, stronger then Meetra and the Sith Lords she fought and vice versa. However, a novel came out and it confirmed all of this. In addition, another game came out and it reveals that Revan could chug asteroids or gigantic rocks at his opponents with barely an effort, unleash emerald lightning or similar, defend himself with a protection bubble and even teleport himself.
This is why we need to be cautious about unofficial opinion of authors. One author does not necessarily gets to decide what is true for a character and what is not, if multiple authors have defined the same character. This is how things work in Star Wars.
Originally posted by Oneness
That's called being a fan of that character. Biasm comes when allow your fanhood to hinder your ability to accept the truth.
Except that it becomes a problem when you become unwilling to concede defeat on behalf of your "fandom". You wouldn't be the first person to claim objectivity in this area and doubtful if you'd be the last.
That's not a real word. Do you mean to say my *asinine assertions?
A typo, my most grievious of sins. And probably the weakest part of my argument. Also, typing on a mobile or tablet is like pushing a peanut uphill with your nose.
The 7 novelizations Lucas wrote after making the scripts for his films and were released before the films - the whole reason for the novelizations was to tell a more in depth story.
1. GL isn't the author of the work. This is a lie.
2. Any later changes made by GL are more legitimate than previous incarnations. RotS novelization not only contradicts the movie so much it would bust my post character limit to summarize, but it predates the final edit of the film, which is more accurate per LFL's canon rules.
3. You haven't used a single source since this discussion began, just giving me your own opinion.
Yea, except to my knowledge Lucas has never come out to deny anything from novels. He's given examples of differences, listed in the LFL article that you linked.
He doesn't have to do so. That's why he hires officials to regulate things and they chose to do so in the laziest way possible- by making tiers of canon without trying to keep them consistent. Again, pull a quote that defines RotS novel as equal or more valid than the latest movie versions.
Wait, you can't. That's explicitly not the case. Read the canon page. All of it.
Only if Lucas denies that this or this happened. Which wouldn't make any sense pertaining to these novelizations he had a very heavy part in shaping. But perhaps the author will have misinterpreted him? What example do you have this contradictory claim made by GL?
Move them goalposts.
GL doesn't have to say that the novel contradicts his movie version; it actually does so. This means that when comparing two versions of events which depict his world, the one that he personally directed and released at a later date is more accurate and truer to his wishes
If GL wanted the stuff Stover wrote to happen on the big screen, it would have happened. He spent time and money injecting dancing stupid muppet songs into RotJ, making Han shoot second, and making blaster bolts brighter in the THX remastered version.
Your assertion that he acknowledges it as equally valid and chose to let the work contradict his and still share the same legitimacy is absurd.
I don't think my understanding is not skewed by my fanaticism.
Pretty sure most people don't. Haven't met any self-proclaimed fanatics lately, have you?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These Jedi weren't weakened on these places. They just learned how to cope well with places strong in the dark side.This is similar to how Malgus & Co. performed inside the Jedi Temple of Coruscant. Malgus and other Sith weren't weakened inside the Jedi Temple, they had learned to cope well with various environments. In-fact, Malgus tore down several columns of the Jedi Temple and killed many Jedi inside with his powers and skills.
Now this doesn't implies that every Jedi would have been fit in places strong in the dark side. Majority would not be (including Luke Skywalker). Revan, HoT and Meetra are special cases in the sense that they acquired the talent to resist the negative influence of strong dark side presence.
Yes, they were. Just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean they were not weakened. Hell, Meetra says it was agony just walking on Malachor's surface. Its said in canon that a Jedi is weakened on a darkside nexus. Where are you getting that these Jedi learned not to be? You're making this up entirely on your own opinion.
Again, just because it isn't said that they were, doesn't mean they weren't. And who says the Jedi Temple was a lightside nexus at that point in time? Again, where are you getting the idea that Malgus and co could resist being weakened by a nexus? Give me some evidence that this was the case.
Where did they acquire that talent? Where does it say they have this talent? What talent exactly is this? Is it a Force power? It is mentioned in a sourcebook or encyclopedia?
Of course, I know you can't answer those questions. Because you're making it up.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, the entire Dromund Kaas is strong in the dark side but some parts of it qualify for nexus label such as Dark Temple.Also, Vitiate had briefly disciplined all of the dark forces inside the Dark Temple, otherwise his Imperial Guard would have fallen victim to such forces.
As I said, Domund Kaas is not a strong nexus, if it is one at all. Strong nexus' have a tendency to affect people inside them, turn them insane ect. But Dromund Kaas had a thriving Imperial population of a millennia, with no problems arising from the darkside other than the perpetual storm.
Ok? So what?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
HoT took this opportunity to slip inside, thanks to guidance of Scourge.This is the point:
You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.
Now, tremendous power was still required to stop Vitiate even during this moment of vulnerability. HoT was the only candidate valid for this job.
Scourge was being impatient.
The HoT did not "slip inside". The Republic lead a full on fleet invasion on Dromund Kaas, a suicide mission, to get the HoT to the surface. From there they led an assualt in Kaas City, not a small feat: "Dromund Kaas is the Imperial capital. Legions of Sith call it home. The remaining population is almost entirely imperial military. We're invading a planet of people who want us dead. We'll have to fight for every centimeter of ground." - Scourge. They steal a shuttle to get to the Dark Temple. Then they still had to fight through Vitiates Sith followers and the Imperial Guard. Legions of the best fighting force in the galaxy..... against six people. The only way Scourge helped was in getting the shuttle, but still it was not as simple as you put it. Trust me, I've actually played the mission, I know the extent of Scourges help in it.
Yes, I knoooooow about that quote. I played the game. What do you think it changes? Yes, he was weakened. Yes, it was the best chance to defeat him. That doesn't make the HoT's victory any less impressive than I've put it. It was the best chance because him being weakened was the only way they could beat him, but not because the HoT can only beat a a weakened Vitiate. But because he's the single most well protected person in the galaxy. If the HoT attacked him in the Dark Temple after going through legions of Imperial Guardsmen, and Vitiate was still at 100% power, she'd get her fvcking ass kicked. Because she'd be tired and drained by the temple and he'd be amped and completely fresh. Stop waving that statement around without considering all the factors around it.