OT Palpatine Vs DE Palpatine

Well, I am not sure whose perspective Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia represents because it doesn't seems to be written from the perspective of a historian or historians. 6 authors have co-written this sourcebook, which is worth noting.

If you check sourcebooks such as Jedi vs. Sith: Essential Guide to the Force, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side, The Jedi Path: A Manual for students of the Force and The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural, you will notice that these sourcebooks represent POV of various characters and historians. These sourcebooks are a good representation of what "in-universe" perspective is as per my understanding.

Now the sourcebook in question (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia) gives "real-world" impression of the content featured in it, it have been written in such a manner. I regard it as an analysis which have consensus on its side, be it from authors or historians or whatever.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Can you refresh my mind on some?

Cosmically, a list would include Palpatine's telepathic manipulation of Coruscant, his psychic subjugation of Byss and corruption of the planet, his rituals during the Clone Wars that aggravated Jedi anxiety and deepened the shroud of the dark side, and his ritual alongside Plagueis that disrupted the balance of the Force.

In terms of combat feats, he's disintegrated Sith wyrms and dark side adepts with Force lightning, defeated Starkiller, stalemated Yoda, massacred three of the Jedi order's premiere swordsmen, blitzed Maul and Opress, demonstrated superhuman strength and speed in excess of most Force users, etc.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Draining Byss, body hopping, and Force wormholes qualify.

Byss was corrupted and subjugated prior to Dark Empire; Palpatine demonstrates the essence transfer technique as early as immediately post-Yavin, where he executes and resurrects Bevel Lemelisk; and the Force wormholes/Force storms have already been addressed.

[QUOTE=14544535]Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[B]Alright, so if we use implicit judgments within reason, OT Sidious is probably implicitly better than his DE counterpart, even if only marginally. This might have more weight of comparable EU feats for OT Sidious are shown. OT Sidious also, IIRC, hasn't dueled in like 30 years so whether or not his saber skills atrophied or remained constant or progressed begs for proof.

In the case of Ragnos, it's entirely implicit because he is never shown in canon alive, while Nyriss and Sadow and Sidious have, so his case was always the caveat of "based on his dominance of badasses and the power of his walking stick, it seems likely that he's a beast". Additional gems of his undefeated terrentatak tomb-pet (which killed intruding Sith for over a thousand years) and his SWTOR codex entry seem to reaffirm this.

The reality is, that EU could come around and show Ragnos as being decisively weaker than Vitiate or Nihilus (which I find plausible even now) or he could come out being some kind of cracked out titan who chokes Sith Lords across the galaxy to maintain his dominance while battling the ones foolish enough to spill wine on his throne. We just don't know, so the cases aren't quite comparable.

I'm not saying OT!Sidious is necessarily stronger than DE!Sidious (it is confirmed his Force mastery improved after his death), but only that we can't assume a character is frail or otherwise unimpressive when both earlier and subsequent depictions of the same character is portrayed mightily.

But I think we're on the same page anyway, so that's cool.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cosmically, a list would include Palpatine's telepathic manipulation of Coruscant, his psychic subjugation of Byss and corruption of the planet, his rituals during the Clone Wars that aggravated Jedi anxiety and deepened the shroud of the dark side, and his ritual alongside Plagueis that disrupted the balance of the Force.

In terms of combat feats, he's disintegrated Sith wyrms and dark side adepts with Force lightning, defeated Starkiller, stalemated Yoda, massacred three of the Jedi order's premiere swordsmen, blitzed Maul and Opress, demonstrated superhuman strength and speed in excess of most Force users, etc.

LOL at the massacre of those premier swordsmen, one of which is conclusively just above AotC Obi-Wan. But anyways, I asked specifically for OT feats.

I'm not saying OT!Sidious is necessarily stronger than DE!Sidious (it is confirmed his Force mastery improved after his death), but only that we can't assume a character is frail or otherwise unimpressive when both earlier and subsequent depictions of the same character is portrayed mightily.

But I think we're on the same page anyway, so that's cool.

More or less. I'm not claiming OT Sidious is utterly weakened, but how much has he fought in the last 30 years? In comparison, PT and DE Sidious had some battles to examine.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, I am not sure whose perspective [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia represents because it doesn't seems to be written from the perspective of a historian or historians. 6 authors have co-written this sourcebook, which is worth noting.

If you check sourcebooks such as Jedi vs. Sith: Essential Guide to the Force, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side, The Jedi Path: A Manual for students of the Force and The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural, you will notice that these sourcebooks represent POV of various characters and historians. These sourcebooks are a good representation of what "in-universe" perspective is as per my understanding.

Now the sourcebook in question (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia) gives "real-world" impression of the content featured in it, it have been written in such a manner. I regard it as an analysis which have consensus on its side, be it from authors or historians or whatever. [/B]

If this is the case, then SWTOR Encyclopedia may have some weight. Baffled as to why they choice to avoid the in-universe POV this one time, but whatever. Vitiate being more powerful than Ragnos seems very likely anyways, this just reaffirms it.

^^^

Thanks.

As for (OT) Sidious's combat prowess; he subdued Master Kota and handled Starkiller.

Starkiller is canonically stated to be no match for Sidious irrespective of how the events unfolded between the two in a confrontation. Keep in mind that Starkiller ended his own life in an attempt to save his allies during this confrontation, so it is unclear how much longer he would have lasted. Though, their is an alternative ending in the game in which Sidious throws a starship over Starkiller to seriously injure him but this is not canon event.

If the author of a sourcebook (featuring Sidious) is Daniel Wallace, expect some major wanking for Sidious from him (Mr. Wallance is the greatest fanboy of Sidious among the authors). It is in a sourcebook from this author that Starkiller is stated to be no match for Sidious. Very telling.

I love how LFL just floods the market with movie character wanking and blows the consistency right out of the window. One guy has like some average TK and lightning to his name, next thing you know he's building Death Stars with his mind while figuring out Chinese finger traps. It makes me utterly hate this mythos sometimes.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
LOL at the massacre of those premier swordsmen, one of which is conclusively just above AotC Obi-Wan. But anyways, I asked specifically for OT feats.

More or less. I'm not claiming OT Sidious is utterly weakened, but how much has he fought in the last 30 years? In comparison, PT and DE Sidious had some battles to examine.

Then in ROTJ, the Force betrays him, bringing balance - then, in DE| even after the Sith Spirits guide his spirit and in Empire's End request that he join them in Vader's spot, as the Ultimate Sith of antiquity| Sidious has run his course, yet fights it off, lingering on with his pitiful machinations, losing to Luke, being afraid to face him, trying desperately to get into Leia's womb for an unrealistic upbringing by equally ambitions Sith Acolytes...

His desperation alone should tell you that he's not what he once was. He was born to become the most powerful (both as total Emperor of the galaxy and as sole inheritor of the total dark side at its greatest, than any Sith before him).

His powers alone may have been keeping him from death until ROTJ - or else he would have body hopped into a clone of Anakin immediately after becoming Emperor, as he still had a living breathing Vader that he could take blood sample from and regrow the original with all his Force sensitivity. He certainly had plenty of time to learn Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation technique, but he didn't even feel the need. Obviously the dark powers were sufficient enough to match Rell's, a human who lived 300 years merely because she was strong in the Force.

As for TFU novel, the mere explosion of Sidious' lightning is what kills Starkiller. Starkiller never faces him, he straight drops to his knees and asks Starkiller to kill him, obviously he was trying to convert Starkiller, if he'd succeeding in goading the latter, Sidious must have been confident that he could subdue his attacker with the Force alone. Then the novel says that Starkiller is no match for the Emperor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As you say Palpatines clonebodies were inferior to the original in force sensitivity and were corrupted by the guy who created them as I recall.

Palpatine in the OT is also hosting a clone body.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
LOL at the massacre of those premier swordsmen, one of which is conclusively just above AotC Obi-Wan.

Regardless, that station is conferred upon them by numerous canon sources.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But anyways, I asked specifically for OT feats.

Some of those are from the OT-era: his defeat of Starkiller, his disintegration of dark side prophets, etc. But the real question is: why should we assume that an older, more advanced, more powerful Sidious would be unable to replicate prior feats?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
More or less. I'm not claiming OT Sidious is utterly weakened, but how much has he fought in the last 30 years? In comparison, PT and DE Sidious had some battles to examine.

Once he becomes Emperor, Palpatine obviously enters the fray far less often than he did before. But he's also dedicating himself to an unprecedented study of the Force and Starkiller, with all his stupendous feats, is "ultimately no match" for the Emperor. Whatever he may have lost in combat skill he undoubtedly makes up for in ever-increasing power.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I love how LFL just floods the market with movie character wanking and blows the consistency right out of the window. One guy has like some average TK and lightning to his name, next thing you know he's building Death Stars with his mind while figuring out Chinese finger traps. It makes me utterly hate this mythos sometimes.

This stance has always baffled me. Why is character wanking acceptable when it pertains to the EU and not the movies?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Palpatine in the OT is also hosting a clone body.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If this is the case, then SWTOR Encyclopedia may have some weight. Baffled as to why they choice to avoid the in-universe POV this one time, but whatever. Vitiate being more powerful than Ragnos seems very likely anyways, this just reaffirms it.

If several in-universe sources confirm it, we should take it practically as fact. If in-universe sources contradict each other and we see ambiguous comments and statements regarding one or more characters' power, then we shouldn't take it very seriously. But I think in this case, when more than one source is implicitly stating Vitiate as the most powerful up to date, there's little room for debate imo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Regardless, that station is conferred upon them by numerous canon sources.

And similarly canon sources indicate Kit Fisto, who did the most besides Mace in the confrontation and has the most "accolades" to his name, is explicitly just above AotC Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan Kenobi wouldn't last a fart in hell's chance against Sidious. So their standing is moot.

Some of those are from the OT-era: his defeat of Starkiller, his disintegration of dark side prophets, etc. But the real question is: why should we assume that an older, more advanced, more powerful Sidious would be unable to replicate prior feats?

I don't doubt his knowledge, but it's been brought up that a much younger Qui-Gon Jinn became weaker, slower as he aged. If this is a valid stance, it's logical to assume that OT Sidious, while probably stronger in the Force and definitely more knowledgable, might not be as capable with a blade as he used to be.

Once he becomes Emperor, Palpatine obviously enters the fray far less often than he did before. But he's also dedicating himself to an unprecedented study of the Force and Starkiller, with all his stupendous feats, is "ultimately no match" for the Emperor. Whatever he may have lost in combat skill he undoubtedly makes up for in ever-increasing power.

Which is true, I agree.

This stance has always baffled me. Why is character wanking acceptable when it pertains to the EU and not the movies?

Precisely because EU started off as over the top and ridiculous, and scaling down has not really occurred. DE started most of it, as did some of the other post-RotJ stuff and the authors went on to make TotJ/GAotS, which goes even further into ridiculousness. Then you have TOR, KotOR, etc. where cosmic level powers are the norm for top tier Force users, and for many many years this was exclusive to the EU. Even the PT films and the Clone Wars novels did not attempt to bridge this gap.

But then came TFU, the newer CW series, and more books and comics about Vader and Sidious to boost them to more respectable levels. If they had been that powerful in the first place, it wouldn't have bugged me. I even admitted that Vader is more powerful now than I had realized and I ranked him higher than Dooku, which you should know is the first time I've done as much.

But the problem becomes this sudden overemphasis on the movie era, to cater to movie-centric fans, and then the wanking starts to spiral out of control and you get abominations like TFU. If anything, I liked the idea of more moderate Force users in the PT/OT era because the emphasis was on the story, not the powers.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And similarly canon sources indicate Kit Fisto, who did the most besides Mace in the confrontation and has the most "accolades" to his name, is explicitly just above AotC Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan Kenobi wouldn't last a fart in hell's chance against Sidious. So their standing is moot.

Which speaks to how powerful Sidious is, not necessarily how weak they are. The characters who can contend with the Emperor are vastly outnumbered by those who are little more than cannon fodder.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I don't doubt his knowledge, but it's been brought up that a much younger Qui-Gon Jinn became weaker, slower as he aged. If this is a valid stance, it's logical to assume that OT Sidious, while probably stronger in the Force and definitely more knowledgable, might not be as capable with a blade as he used to be.

But what holds true for Qui-Gon isn't necessarily the case for other aged characters like Sidious, Dooku, etc. In fact, Sidious was Qui-Gon's age when he took on the Zabraks, Mace and the B-Team, and Yoda. While his natural physicality has diminished with age, he's clearly powerful enough to compensate.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Precisely because EU started off as over the top and ridiculous, and scaling down has not really occurred. DE started most of it, as did some of the other post-RotJ stuff and the authors went on to make TotJ/GAotS, which goes even further into ridiculousness. Then you have TOR, KotOR, etc. where cosmic level powers are the norm for top tier Force users, and for many many years this was exclusive to the EU. Even the PT films and the Clone Wars novels did not attempt to bridge this gap.

But then came TFU, the newer CW series, and more books and comics about Vader and Sidious to boost them to more respectable levels. If they had been that powerful in the first place, it wouldn't have bugged me. I even admitted that Vader is more powerful now than I had realized and I ranked him higher than Dooku, which you should know is the first time I've done as much.

But the problem becomes this sudden overemphasis on the movie era, to cater to movie-centric fans, and then the wanking starts to spiral out of control and you get abominations like TFU. If anything, I liked the idea of more moderate Force users in the PT/OT era because the emphasis was on the story, not the powers.

The problem is that, as you admit, the EU began this wankery. It seems to me that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I personally find most of it distasteful, regardless of whether or not it's movie- or EU-centric.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which speaks to how powerful Sidious is, not necessarily how weak they are. The characters who can contend with the Emperor are vastly outnumbered by those who are little more than cannon fodder.

True enough.

But what holds true for Qui-Gon isn't necessarily the case for other aged characters like Sidious, Dooku, etc. In fact, Sidious was Qui-Gon's age when he took on the Zabraks, Mace and the B-Team, and Yoda. While his natural physicality has diminished with age, he's clearly powerful enough to compensate.

I personally agree. But I was the minority in that discussion.

The problem is that, as you admit, the EU began this wankery. It seems to me that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I personally find most of it distasteful, regardless of whether or not it's movie- or EU-centric.

I agree, but it's a little too late to level the playing field without basically making a bunch of G-canon look ridiculous in comparison.

If the films were edited to make Force usage more comparable, and some EU novels edited likewise, this might bridge the gap a bit. I'm not defending EU wankery at this point, but I simply don't have unrealistic expectations of it to be modest anymore, since it never was in the first place. The films, starting with the OT, were very modest and the early Clone Wars novels kept that basis.

It made more sense that a comfortable and relatively unchallenged Jedi would become complacent, and the adaptation of the Diplomat's Form over more practical dueling forms. In any case, the G-canon is better for storytelling, and the EU for empowering uber feats and up to 11 characters. Revan, arguably the most popular EU only character, is built around this concept rather neatly.

To everyone's surprise I have done reading all the Dark Empire series at last, and Palpatine hasn't surprised me so "godly" in those cbooks as all of his fanboys claim him and portray him to be the "strongest Sith of all times". lol
Sidious was at most a better version of King Ommin.

Vitiate safely outmatches him so much under most aspects. It has become obvious for me that at this point Vitiate is indeed the strongest Sith of all times, followed by Darth Nihilus, then Exar Kun.

As the general Sith top goes(not Banite Sith) in brute strength in the Force:

1.Vitiate(Valkorion)
2.Darth Nihilus
3.Exar Kun
4.Darth Sidious/Darth Plagueis

Regarding the official lore Sidious should be on the 4th place because he had most showings in cbooks, unofficially I think ancient Sith>Sidious in Force power and [lightsaber mastery], but we didn't see many of their showings so we can't just blindly assume things.

My favorite part is when the ancient Sith feel simpathetic for Sidious when they revealed his doom on Korriban.
"How can one who has ruled only a few *decades* command those who held dominion for *centuries*?" I love that line. Or when they questioned his authority entering in their Sith tombs because he couldn't stop the rapidly aging process of the clone.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Sidious was at most a better version of King Ommin.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cosmically, a list would include Palpatine's telepathic manipulation of Coruscant, his psychic subjugation of Byss and corruption of the planet, his rituals during the Clone Wars that aggravated Jedi anxiety and deepened the shroud of the dark side, and his ritual alongside Plagueis that disrupted the balance of the Force.

In terms of combat feats, he's disintegrated Sith wyrms and dark side adepts with Force lightning, defeated Starkiller, stalemated Yoda, massacred three of the Jedi order's premiere swordsmen, blitzed Maul and Opress, demonstrated superhuman strength and speed in excess of most Force users, etc.

I'm not saying OT!Sidious is necessarily stronger than DE!Sidious (it is confirmed his Force mastery improved after his death), but only that we can't assume a character is frail or otherwise unimpressive when both earlier and subsequent depictions of the same character is portrayed mightily.

But I think we're on the same page anyway, so that's cool.

1. While erasing the mind of Coruscant people is a feat, they were non-sensitives. Non-sensitives are not comparable with Force sensitives. Besides that, he corrupted Byss with his Dark Side Adepts, slowly draining them for decades, keep in mind, decades. He clouded the Jedi's mind because of that Sith shrine under the Jedi's temple, he had weakened them, and he had done that in long years, not a day. Their "midi-chlorian ritual" disrupted the Force, but there are many examples of past Sith Lords who could create rifts in the Force with their sheer raw strength in the Force.

2. I've looked for Wookieepedia for "Sith wyrm" section or "Force lightning" section, and I didn't find any to suggest Palpatine disintegrated such creatures, or that he disintegrated Dark Side Prophets.
May I ask the source for Sidious disintegrating Dark Side Prophets or Sith wyrms with his Force lightning?

Galen Marek was stronger in the Force than him during the movies, but he was more likely a version of Anakin, strong, but unskilled in comparision with Sidious.
I've seen the movies and Yoda had beaten Sidious, but withdrew because the clones were on the way. I could hardly say those were so skillful Jedi or the best of all times, they were some ordinary Jedi. He didn't blitz Maul or Oppress, he resorted to his Force strength to kill them, Sidious always does that. There are popular Sith or Jedi that can move as Sidious, he was a fast warrior, but not a DBZ-er.

3. Sidious is an impressive character, but in the end it depends of consumer if really thinks Sidious is a Sith god. lol Sidious was the best at cunning, deception and manipulation, that was all.
Let's not summon the worm holes 'cause he already said in his Dark Side Compendium it had nothing to do with one's strength in the Force. Impressive feat, but it was an ancient technique as well.

Originally posted by ILS

Don'get mad with me, but you didn't invent Star Wars, you merely create a thread based on your own logic. While some are pretty well made, there are many threads in which a character, more likely like Sidious is elevated at god status by some Sidious brainwashed obsessed fanboys who cannot comprehend properly some hyperbolic sentences . By the way, I've read your Exar Kun thread. And it was attractive. 🙂

Such obsessed fanboys I know are:

ShootingNova
TheVivas
Silver2467(a little)

I wish you would just stay away.