Originally posted by Epicurus
Hinduism is no more repressive than any of the Abrahamic religions. You can pinpoint as much towards casteism and the (now defunct) sati movement, but truth is that most of the original vedic tenets from which modern day hinduism is derived are at a level of philosophical and intellectual sophistication which western religions would only dream of ever being.As strange as this p.o.v of ddm's sounds, I actually agree with it. Although, this brings forth another question; would the creation of such a gay-majority state result in another Israel which is constantly at war with neighboring, bigoted nations?
Eh, I'm not so sure I want to give those laurels to ancient Vedic texts. There's a great deal of subjectivity that comes into play when you just start considering the mystical esoteric blah blah that comes with some spiritual beliefs and I'm not inclined to debate one over the other at this point. Suffice to say that Buddhism has, for the most part, been a huge improvement over the pre-existing Hindu religion and in fact seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to some of the latter's worse tenets.
Also, the issue of the Dalit is what I had in mind when I considered repression. While you could argue that Abrahamic religions repress women and nonbelievers, the extent to which they do so is often limited and in many places did not stand the test of time. India, despite legal rulings to the contrary, still victimizes the Dalit. I've seen videos of small children, living and playing in filth, being forced to scrap feces out from under toilets that non-Dalit use on a daily basis.
I'm not sure an equivalent social standing exists in the Abrahamic world.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Are they imprisoned, beaten, and murdered as much as the LGBT community, around the world?If so, then, yeah, we should probably make preparations to save the Atheists, too.
As much? Perhaps not. But they are subject to death, imprisonment, or worse in some religious fundamentalist countries, and even in America are viewed with suspicion. More Americans voted to have a Muslim in the White House than an Atheist, which says a great deal.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As much? Perhaps not. But they are subject to death, imprisonment, or worse in some religious fundamentalist countries, and even in America are viewed with suspicion.
Do you have numbers? I'm actually very interested in those numbers since I identify, primarily, as agnostic (specifically, "agnostic theist" which means I have a theistic belief system but "I really don't ***kin' know" at the end of the day).
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
More Americans voted to have a Muslim in the White House than an Atheist, which says a great deal.
lol
Originally posted by Astner
No. Because Obama's religious affiliations had nothing to do with the outcome of the election.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Do you have numbers? I'm actually very interested in those numbers since I identify, primarily, as agnostic (specifically, "agnostic theist" which means I have a theistic belief system but "I really don't ***kin' know" at the end of the day).
I had a good one in particular, but it's saved at home and I'm stuck at work.
Here's one I found through Google that wasn't an atheist or Christian blog.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Here's one I found through Google that wasn't an atheist or Christian blog.
That did not address my question at all. I'm looking for imprisonment and murder numbers, brah.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That did not address my question at all. I'm looking for imprisonment and murder numbers, brah.
I thought the trust issue was what you most took issue with. Now it seems I must defend the idea that atheists are equally or more persecuted than gays, which was not my intended argument.
In any case, This is more about the views of Atheism worldwide, legal or otherwise. The point I was making is that Atheists are also a persecuted and mistrusted group, like homosexuals, and since you were handing out fantasy islands I figure you'd oblige. I didn't realize you had to provide proof of death to get in.
To quote:
[list]The IHEU - which links over 120 humanist, atheist and secular organizations in more than 40 countries - said it was issuing the report to mark the U.N.'s Human Rights Day on Monday.
According to its survey of some 60 countries, the seven where expression of atheist views or defection from the official religion can bring capital punishment are Afghanistan, Iran, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Sudan.
--
In a range of other countries - such as Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Kuwait and Jordan - publication of atheist or humanist views on religion are totally banned or strictly limited under laws prohibiting "blasphemy".
In many of these countries, and others like Malaysia, citizens have to register as adherents of a small number officially-recognized religions -- which normally include no more than Christianity and Judaism as well as Islam.
Atheists and humanists are thereby forced to lie to obtain their official documents without which it is impossible to go to university, receive medical treatment, travel abroad or drive.
--
In at least seven U.S. states, constitutional provisions are in place that bar atheists from public office and one state, Arkansas, has a law that bars an atheist from testifying as a witness at a trial, the report said.[/list]
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I thought the trust issue was what you most took issue with. Now it seems I must defend the idea that atheists are equally or more persecuted than gays, which was not my intended argument.In any case, This is more about the views of Atheism worldwide, legal or otherwise. The point I was making is that Atheists are also a persecuted and mistrusted group, like homosexuals, and since you were handing out fantasy islands I figure you'd oblige. I didn't realize you had to provide proof of death to get in.
To quote:
[list]The IHEU - which links over 120 humanist, atheist and secular organizations in more than 40 countries - said it was issuing the report to mark the U.N.'s Human Rights Day on Monday.
According to its survey of some 60 countries, the seven where expression of atheist views or defection from the official religion can bring capital punishment are Afghanistan, Iran, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Sudan.
--
In a range of other countries - such as Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Kuwait and Jordan - publication of atheist or humanist views on religion are totally banned or strictly limited under laws prohibiting "blasphemy".
In many of these countries, and others like Malaysia, citizens have to register as adherents of a small number officially-recognized religions -- which normally include no more than Christianity and Judaism as well as Islam.
Atheists and humanists are thereby forced to lie to obtain their official documents without which it is impossible to go to university, receive medical treatment, travel abroad or drive.
--
In at least seven U.S. states, constitutional provisions are in place that bar atheists from public office and one state, Arkansas, has a law that bars an atheist from testifying as a witness at a trial, the report said.[/list]
Thank you, that's much better.
However, it does not give me any numbers. Those could be benign laws (like the US Laws which are unconstitutional and not enforced).
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Eh, I'm not so sure I want to give those laurels to ancient Vedic texts. There's a great deal of subjectivity that comes into play when you just start considering the mystical esoteric blah blah that comes with some spiritual beliefs and I'm not inclined to debate one over the other at this point. Suffice to say that Buddhism has, for the most part, been a huge improvement over the pre-existing Hindu religion and in fact seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to some of the latter's worse tenets.Also, the issue of the Dalit is what I had in mind when I considered repression. While you could argue that Abrahamic religions repress women and nonbelievers, the extent to which they do so is often limited and in many places did not stand the test of time. India, despite legal rulings to the contrary, still victimizes the Dalit. I've seen videos of small children, living and playing in filth, being forced to scrap feces out from under toilets that non-Dalit use on a daily basis.
I'm not sure an equivalent social standing exists in the Abrahamic world.
That is largely relegated to rural areas, or the underdeveloped regions of urban settlements. The government has been systematically developing policies across the decades aimed at the upliftment of Dalits. Lawl at women's repression being limited in Abrahamic countries as compared to Dailts treatment in India. At least India itself has actively made an effort to improve the lives of these minorities, as opposed to countries like Afghanistan And Saudi Arabia which still live in a 14th century time freeze as far as women and religious minorities go. Lol, children from both Dalit and non-Dalit background live in filthy conditions in India and are often the victim of child labor. That's not a specific issue of casteism which can be blamed squarely on religion, that's a more generic social problem which third world countries in South Asia and Africa seem to suffer from in general.
There are far too many examples in far too many muslim-majority states, that I am surprised you would even make such a statement.
Originally posted by Epicurus
I am not talking about mytical, esoteric beliefs as much as I am referring to the philosophical and intellectual sophistry which was pioneered by ancient Vedas. Same could be said of Jainism, but upon closer inspection, one realizes that these are pretty much the same brand of spiritual line of thinking as Hinduism, without all of its negatives(idol-worship, casteism, the now defunct sati etc).
So I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I noted that Hinduism is pretty repressive and backwards, and that Buddhism, by comparison, wasn't. If you want to say "Hinduism in its pure state, without all the bad stuff, is good", then well... awesome for you. That wasn't relevant to my point and is kind of leading into a debate I don't care to entertain. My statement was general, and my desire to fight for it is simply not there.
That is largely relegated to rural areas, or the underdeveloped regions of urban settlements. The government has been systematically developing policies across the decades aimed at the upliftment of Dalits.
Most of India is rural, and Dalits account for almost 18% of its population. While I'm sure in the cities they don't all have to chip shit away from under latrines, the point was the exposure I had to their plight was as bad as I've ever seen it. And I called it like I saw it.
Lawl at women's repression being limited in Abrahamic countries as compared to Dailts treatment in India.
It is. Unless you're considering "Abrahamic countries" to include only fundamentalist strongholds, in which case, awesome for you again. Abrahamic religions are the foundation for Western civilization, yet most Western countries are not forcing women to live as they did two thousand years ago. If you want to refine your intent as "the Middle-East", then okay. I agree that the Middle-East is backwards in time. This doesn't preclude India having tons of social issues.
At least India itself has actively made an effort to improve the lives of these minorities, as opposed to countries like Afghanistan And Saudi Arabia which still live in a 14th century time freeze as far as women and religious minorities go.
Specifically, they've made it illegal to discriminate (although the level of its effectiveness is debatable) and they have made it a priority in urban areas to get Dalits jobs. Whup dee ****ing do. I don't see how this makes those with 'jobs' of scrapping shit any less repressed. Education is also a huge issue for these people, and many of them are forced to live in rural areas because their ancestors were 'unclean'.
Lol, children from both Dalit and non-Dalit background live in filthy conditions in India and are often the victim of child labor. That's not a specific issue of casteism which can be blamed squarely on religion, that's a more generic social problem which third world countries in South Asia and Africa seem to suffer from in general.
Right, but the situation I referred to was specifically because they were Untouchables. It had nothing to do with their status as simply 'dirt poor'. Even though it is largely illegal to do so, in rural communities they still suffer because of old superstitions and so on. Which was my point.
There are far too many examples in far too many muslim-majority states, that I am surprised you would even make such a statement.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
India birthed Hinduism, one of the most repressive continuous religions in the world, and Buddhism, probably the most progressive and lenient. But the majority still favor the former and people have lived and died under it for centuries.
Emphasis mine.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I've seen videos of small children, living and playing in filth, being forced to scrap feces out from under toilets that non-Dalit use on a daily basis.I'm not sure an equivalent social standing exists in the Abrahamic world.
Again, emphasis mine.
Before you go strawmanning and pretending like I said Hinduism was far far worse than Abrahamic religions and so on, reference what I said. Specifically, that Hinduism is ONE of the most repressive religions in the world and that if a social status equivalent to the shit scrappers that I referenced existed, I didn't know about it. This wasn't something they did for fun; they were forced to do it per their social status. If you are so certain that one exists in Muslim words, by all means, educate me. I'm not stating it can't exist, so your surprise is rather unwarranted.
My niece is a Lesbian and a Police officer. In Australia, I'm not fond of Indian Taxi (cab) drivers.
They will scam you, if you're not drunk or mainly Male...you're alright. Young ladies get scammed all the time. One of my nieces, was drunk at a nightclub and her friends put her into a cab.......it was $80!!! Usually, would have been $45, though she went to sleep.
My brother payed it. They're scammers...plain and simple. There's not much money in India, but, they get visa's here for 1-2 years while being a cab driver. So, they get at much money before the visa runs out.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I noted that Hinduism is pretty repressive and backwards, and that Buddhism, by comparison, wasn't. If you want to say "Hinduism in its pure state, without all the bad stuff, is good", then well... awesome for you. That wasn't relevant to my point and is kind of leading into a debate I don't care to entertain. My statement was general, and my desire to fight for it is simply not there.Most of India is rural, and Dalits account for almost 18% of its population. While I'm sure in the cities they don't all have to chip shit away from under latrines, the point was the exposure I had to their plight was as bad as I've ever seen it. And I called it like I saw it.
It is. Unless you're considering "Abrahamic countries" to include only fundamentalist strongholds, in which case, awesome for you again. Abrahamic religions are the foundation for Western civilization, yet most Western countries are not forcing women to live as they did two thousand years ago. If you want to refine your intent as "the Middle-East", then okay. I agree that the Middle-East is backwards in time. This doesn't preclude India having tons of social issues.
Specifically, they've made it illegal to discriminate (although the level of its effectiveness is debatable) and they have made it a priority in urban areas to get Dalits jobs. Whup dee ****ing do. I don't see how this makes those with 'jobs' of scrapping shit any less repressed. Education is also a huge issue for these people, and many of them are forced to live in rural areas because their ancestors were 'unclean'.
Right, but the situation I referred to was specifically because they were Untouchables. It had nothing to do with their status as simply 'dirt poor'. Even though it is largely illegal to do so, in rural communities they still suffer because of old superstitions and so on. Which was my point.
Emphasis mine.
Again, emphasis mine.
Before you go strawmanning and pretending like I said Hinduism was far far worse than Abrahamic religions and so on, reference what I said. Specifically, that Hinduism is ONE of the most repressive religions in the world and that if a social status equivalent to the shit scrappers that I referenced existed, I didn't know about it. This wasn't something they did for fun; they were forced to do it per their social status. If you are so certain that one exists in Muslim words, by all means, educate me. I'm not stating it can't exist, so your surprise is rather unwarranted.
It is bad, but let's not go ahead and claim that the treatment meted out to women and and minority religions under most states that aren't treated as bad. Plus, big as India's rural portion of the population might be, it is rapidly shrinking, and by this decade the country would likely be a mostly urban state.
Islam is an Abrahamic religion and a pretty major one seeing how more than a fifth of the world population is muslim andhow the muslim population of the world is rapidly increasing to the point where it will overtake Christianity within a few decades. So yes, when I claim the bad treatment meted out to women and minority religions, I largely(or loosely, depending on the way you want to interpret it) refer to Islamic countries. Though there are some cases of blatant misogyny and sexism in the more backward parts of Israel which I can cite, that would put the much criticized Khap movement in India to shame.
Where exactly is your proof that these jobs are largely relegated to "scrapping shit"? On a sidenote, I was unaware that over 20% reservation of seats in the IITs, or reservation in Parliament, or quotas provided via government schemes in various decent jobs somehow equated to "scrapping shit". Honest to god question; are your claims based on a select few examples like wiki or random articles/stories the BBC(or some other international news agency, the sources of which can arguably be accused of publication bias) has covered?
Again, a big lawl at education being a huge problem for them, and thanks for stating the obvious; that their caste is relegated to the Untouchable status. I am guessing your education claim is based on some random article where overdramatic sympathizers point out how these people aren't allowed to study the Vedas in a local rural community or allowed to become priests in temples. To quote a buddy of mine,"whup dee ****ing do"!
Did you even properly interpret what that statement of mine meant? These are my words; "There are far too many examples in far too many muslim-majority states, that I am surprised you would even make such a statement". Which were directly penned down in response to your ( somewhat ridiculous imo) claim that "I'm not sure an equivalent social standing exists in the Abrahamic world". What does emphasizing a point which has nothing to do with what I am addressing here got to do anything...with anything?
Again, read above para.
I know exactly what you said, but nice way to deflect from the argument and accuse me of strawmanning(pot, is that you screaming the word "black"😉, despite going off on non-sequiters, and missing the point that I try to make when addressing you in the previous post.
Originally posted by Epicurus
... I am also pointing out that Buddhism(and Jainism by extension) is pretty much the same religion as Hinduism when one doesn't take into account the bad stuff which is overemphasized in modern-day media...
BS! That is like saying that Judaism and Christianity are "pretty much the same religion". Just wrong.
Originally posted by Epicurus
I am pointing out that claiming that Hinduism is a repressive religion in a world which is dominated by repressive religions, is redundant to say the least.
Noted. But irrelevant from my POV, since the topic discusses India, and it's social problems. I had compared Hinduism and Buddhism, with the former being on the far repressive side of the scale. Both religions originated from the same country, and yet one is not like the others. I was calling attention to the fact. You chose to make it a crusade of whether or not Hinduism is 'just another repressive religion' or some such and to be quite frank, I'm uninterested in fighting this trivial point with you. If you want to pretend like you've 'won' and gain XP, by all means.
I am also pointing out that Buddhism(and Jainism by extension) is pretty much the same religion as Hinduism when one doesn't take into account the bad stuff which is overemphasized in modern-day media.
This is simply not true.
It is bad, but let's not go ahead and claim that the treatment meted out to women and and minority religions under most states that aren't treated as bad.
Specify if this is your stance.
Plus, big as India's rural portion of the population might be, it is rapidly shrinking, and by this decade the country would likely be a mostly urban state.
Perhaps. But I'm not speculating on urban development; I made a judgment call based on things I had seen as of recently.
Islam [b]is an Abrahamic religion and a pretty major one seeing how more than a fifth of the world population is muslim andhow the muslim population of the world is rapidly increasing to the point where it will overtake Christianity within a few decades. So yes, when I claim the bad treatment meted out to women and minority religions, I largely(or loosely, depending on the way you want to interpret it) refer to Islamic countries. Though there are some cases of blatant misogyny and sexism in the more backward parts of Israel which I can cite, that would put the much criticized Khap movement in India to shame.[/b]
Then enlighten us. You appear to have your thumb on the truth. Bring it to the table.
Where exactly is your proof that these jobs are largely relegated to "scrapping shit"?
This was never my argument. I referenced a specific example, and used it as a direct comparison, saying I was not aware of a similarl status quo elsewhere.
In your zeal to white knight Hinduism, you committed a:
On a sidenote, I was unaware that over 20% reservation of seats in the IITs, or reservation in Parliament, or quotas provided via government schemes in various decent jobs somehow equated to "scrapping shit".
Read slower. It might help you.
Honest to god question; are your claims based on a select few examples like wiki or random articles/stories the BBC(or some other international news agency, the sources of which can arguably be accused of publication bias) has covered?
Actually, on a few documentaries on the ills of Hinduism that I watched perhaps two years ago. Not a news article.
Again, a big lawl at education being a huge problem for them, and thanks for stating the obvious;
Which is part of the problem of the Dalit; especially in rural areas, they can't aspire to something better because they don't have the opportunities. This problem isn't exclusive to the Dalit, but it affects how they are treated and it shapes the prejudices of the equally ignorant surrounding them, who still cling to their traditions. There's a correlation between availability of education and the ability to shape your country.
that their caste is relegated to the Untouchable status. I am guessing your education claim is based on some random article where overdramatic sympathizers point out how these people aren't allowed to study the Vedas in a local rural community or allowed to become priests in temples. To quote a buddy of mine,"whup dee ****ing do"!
LOLNOPE. Arguing against tone much?
Did you even properly interpret what that statement of mine meant? These are my words; "There are far too many examples in far too many muslim-majority states, that I am surprised you would even make such a statement". Which were directly penned down in response to your ( somewhat ridiculous imo) claim that "I'm not sure an equivalent social standing exists in the Abrahamic world". What does emphasizing a point which has nothing to do with what I am addressing here got to do anything...with anything?
It's pretty simple, but I'll use small words this time:
I didn't know of a similar situation in the Abrahamic world to the poor children forced to clean latrines in rural India because they were Untouchables
I even asked you if you had some examples to educate me. Way to avoid that responsibility and continue to argue as if you're an authority with generalizations to counter my general statement.
Again, read above para.I know exactly what you said, but nice way to deflect from the argument and accuse me of strawmanning(pot, is that you screaming the word "black"😉, despite going off on non-sequiters, and missing the point that I try to make when addressing you in the previous post.
Actually, you need to tighten up your reading skills here. At no point did I make exclusive or absolute statements comparing Hinduism to Abrahamic religions; this was your interpretation of what you thought I said, and I attempted to clear this up by reminding you of the openness of my words. "ONE of the most repressive religions" is not the same as "THE worst religion ever, etc.". Furthermore, I said in a nutshell I could not think of a comparative social status. I did NOT say "A comparative social status DOES NOT EXIST."
So your argument, which you have derived from misreading my words or assuming my intent without asking for clarification (RE: "Is this your argument, sir?"😉 lead to a whole lot of strawmanning and hot air over nothing.
Originally posted by Firefly218
That's just wrong. Caste system and hinduism are mutually exclusive.But it is nice to see racism still runs rampant 👆
While the caste system is not Hinduism per se, it is based on Vedic texts, even in its 'modern' form. So they are not 'mutually exclusive'; they are interrelated concepts as they have been for hundreds of years, and pretty much indistinguishable to most outsiders. While I concede that non-Hindus in India have caste systems in place, they did not originate these systems and they came from Hindu traditions in place before these religions became popular in the region.
Here's some documents on recent crimes tied to the system, despite its illegal status. To further my point, the caste system is a bad thing, and it still exists in the minds of the people, if not 'legal' on paper. This is similar to why racially motivated hate crimes still exist in America, even though they are illegal. Legislation does not render motives and history obsolete.