Captain America 3

This almost lived up to the hype. It was an excellent film, but the pre-launch hype and some of the early reviews made it sound like this was going to be Marvel's Godfather II (😛),

Anyway, in the top five best MCU films, imo. Just behind GoTG, AA and CA:TWS, level with TIH.

Cap was excellent, Tony just perfect as borderline detestable and Ant Man was awesome. Loved the Stark - Parker scenes and Black Panther fitted in great, especially the way that he was portrayed as being a little detached from their blind civil war.

Actually, that was perhaps the only reason why I wouldn't say this was the best MCU film. The premise, the entire reason why they are at war with each other ... It wasn't strong enough. It felt forced. Even a simple manhunt for Bucky, with IM out for his head, would have worked better than some issue with signing up to a collar and leash. It's the Avengers, they wouldn't just obey orders, no matter what they signed up to. No way would Stark or Widow or Hawkeye give up their own principles.

The actual comic's reason for the Civil War, the registration act, was much more believable and much more emotionally resonant. And they could have gone with that too - citing the Inhuman epidemic that's been going on in MAOS as part of the reasoning.

Not sure why they had to use collateral damage (in the course of saving the whole bloody planet) as the reason.

WS is awesome. The end battle against Iron Man was amazing.

Originally posted by janus77
This almost lived up to the hype. It was an excellent film, but the pre-launch hype and some of the early reviews made it sound like this was going to be Marvel's Godfather II (😛),

Anyway, in the top five best MCU films, imo. Just behind GoTG, AA and CA:TWS, level with TIH.

Cap was excellent, Tony just perfect as borderline detestable and Ant Man was awesome. Loved the Stark - Parker scenes and Black Panther fitted in great, especially the way that he was portrayed as being a little detached from their blind civil war.

Actually, that was perhaps the only reason why I wouldn't say this was the best MCU film. The premise, the entire reason why they are at war with each other ... It wasn't strong enough. It felt forced. Even a simple manhunt for Bucky, with IM out for his head, would have worked better than some issue with signing up to a collar and leash. It's the Avengers, they wouldn't just obey orders, no matter what they signed up to. No way would Stark or Widow or Hawkeye give up their own principles.

The actual comic's reason for the Civil War, the registration act, was much more believable and much more emotionally resonant. And they could have gone with that too - citing the Inhuman epidemic that's been going on in MAOS as part of the reasoning.

Not sure why they had to use collateral damage (in the course of saving the whole bloody planet) as the reason.

I disagree, there is only so much you can establish in a 2.5 hour movie. The conflict didn't seem forced at all to me. Once Cap went after Bucky and recovered him, he was also harboring a fugitive in addition to not having signed the accords. Scarlet Witch was roped in as the person most responsible for the collateral damage, others were loyal to Cap and trusted his judgement. Also, with the regard to the airport fight, everyone was clearly pulling their punches, as they should have. Shit didn't get real until Rhodey was taken out and it escalated from there.

Originally posted by quanchi112
WS is awesome. The end battle against Iron Man was amazing.

Hell, and Cap wasn't?

I don't know why people think the fight in the airport was super serious...it wasn't. Everyone was pulling their punches. They were trying to do MINIMAL harm to each other WHILST still "WINNING". The only fight that was serious was the end fight. Airport was for fun, end fight was for feels.

Amazing film!

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I disagree, there is only so much you can establish in a 2.5 hour movie. The conflict didn't seem forced at all to me. Once Cap went after Bucky and recovered him, he was also harboring a fugitive in addition to not having signed the accords. Scarlet Witch was roped in as the person most responsible for the collateral damage, others were loyal to Cap and trusted his judgement. Also, with the regard to the airport fight, everyone was clearly pulling their punches, as they should have. Shit didn't get real until Rhodey was taken out and it escalated from there.

They didn't bother establishing a genuine emotional and rational argument. Just "collateral damage", "collateral damage", "collateral damage" and you guys are a menace and need to be put on a leash!

No argument about what they prevented or how vital their involvement was. No mention that the enhanced beings are everywhere and conventional ideas about sovereignty are pretty much moot when you can destroy whole continents with a single hissy-fit.

They literally just took the blame for shit that wasn't their fault. And, as I said, the comicbook had a much better, fleshed out reasoning for this whole Civil War.

The airport fight would actually be the best (albeit retroactive) example of a reason for them signing a leashing agreement, as that was wanton destruction all because of a tiff. That was gratuitous, not Sokovia, not Wakanda, not New York. This wasn't Man of Steel, they didn't drag the fights to those locations or draw the fights out to indulge themselves.

Originally posted by janus77
They didn't bother establishing a genuine emotional and rational argument. Just "collateral damage", "collateral damage", "collateral damage" and you guys are a menace and need to be put on a leash!

No argument about what they prevented or how vital their involvement was. No mention that the enhanced beings are everywhere and conventional ideas about sovereignty are pretty much moot when you can destroy whole continents with a single hissy-fit.

They literally just took the blame for shit that wasn't their fault. And, as I said, the comicbook had a much better, fleshed out reasoning for this whole Civil War.

The airport fight would actually be the best (albeit retroactive) example of a reason for them signing a leashing agreement, as that was wanton destruction all because of a tiff. That was gratuitous, not Sokovia, not Wakanda, not New York. This wasn't Man of Steel, they didn't drag the fights to those locations or draw the fights out to indulge themselves.

Also, Cap does say that he feels they've made the world a safer place. But then Ross responds by saying that Thor and Hulk are missing and that's unacceptable.

MORE IMPORTANTLY however, no amount of them refusing to accept blame would have changed the fact that 117 countries ratified the accords into law.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Iron man CREATED Ultron dude. The entire thing was his fault. Loki coming to earth was directly due to Thor's actions. Honestly, the rest of the Avengers taking the blame for Ultron is pretty high of them considering it's all Tony's fault.

Also, Cap does say that he feels they've made the world a safer place. But then Ross responds by saying that Thor and Hulk are missing and that's unacceptable.

MORE IMPORTANTLY however, no amount of them refusing to accept blame would have changed the fact that 117 countries ratified the accords into law.

Yes, Tony (and Bruce) created Ultron, but why would the rest of them be anything but heroes for saving the whole world.

Doesn't matter how many countries ratify the treaty, the avengers, Hulk, Thor, tonnes of enhanced people ... It's meaningless.

With registration, it was at the street-level then rising up because of the way people sided with an issue that had some degree of realism to it.

Going top-down blaming the Avengers for saving the planet? That was not something that I could believe.

Hulk and Thor ... One's a US Government creation and the other, no registration would matter at all, you can't have legal oversight over an Asgardian.

Ross' reasoning didn't really work at all, it was just an emotional plea that passed under the whole "collateral damage" thing.

Loki doing his shit was not Thor's fault in any way. Earth was always in Thanos' plans, Loki was just the instrument to cut the first incision.

Um, EVERY single one of the Avengers is a citizen of ONE of the 117 countries that ratified the accords into law EXCEPT Thor. Yes, Thor would be immune to it and there is pretty much nothing anyone on earth could do to stop him from doing what he pleases.

That being said, directly going against the law is the basic principle of what Heroes fight against. They stop criminals. Usually, it's Super-criminals (super villains).

Are you telling me that the governments of the world REACTING to the collateral damage of all those events is beyond belief? REALLY? You're REALLY questioning the fact that GOVERNMENTS could do something STUPID?

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Um, EVERY single one of the Avengers is a citizen of ONE of the 117 countries that ratified the accords into law EXCEPT Thor. Yes, Thor would be immune to it and there is pretty much nothing anyone on earth could do to stop him from doing what he pleases.

That being said, directly going against the law is the basic principle of what Heroes fight against. They stop criminals. Usually, it's Super-criminals (super villains).

Are you telling me that the governments of the world REACTING to the collateral damage of all those events is beyond belief? REALLY? You're REALLY questioning the fact that GOVERNMENTS could do something STUPID?

Not only stupid, but something I don't buy the world really supporting/asking for.

Remember Avengers, where people around the world were holding Avengers trophies as a result of them saving the world?

Nobody blamed them for NY. And nobody would blame Hulk, Thor, Hawkeye ... for Sokovia.

That's why I find the ground up, escalation to a registration act, much more believable.

Originally posted by janus77
Not only stupid, but something I don't buy the world really supporting/asking for.

Remember Avengers, where people around the world were holding Avengers trophies as a result of them saving the world?

Nobody blamed them for NY. And nobody would blame Hulk, Thor, Hawkeye ... for Sokovia.

That's why I find the ground up, escalation to a registration act, much more believable.

Point is, governments WOULD call for the accords in real life. There is no such thing as Vigilante justice in the real world. Vigilante= criminal. Only in comics can a civilian bypass and even take the law into their own hands and get away with it. I completely disagree with your gripes on this issue. Like, you are just wrong dude.

It was an alien invasion, they could easily have argued and dismissed the whole criticism around NY.

That does not make any rational or emotional sense at all.

Even worse, they show the bloody SHIELD carrier dropping in Washington and blame the Avengers, as if SHIELD isn't the government gone rogue and the very reason why politically sanctioned power is reckless.

They just did not make even the faintest attempt at a reasonable argument. Instead it was only a brief mention that "the safest hands are still our own".

And, as I keep saying, there's no way oversight is realistic in the world of MCU. You just would never achieve anything effective. How do you have oversight over Thor? What about when the Guardians and other parts of the universe cross with Earth, as they will with Infinity Wars (I imagine)?

Earth doesn't even know about the Guardians of the Galaxy yet. And again, I agreed with you that THOR cannot be restricted to the accords. However, every other hero is a citizen of Earth; and subsequently one of the 117 countries that ratified the accords into law. While I don't disagree with ALL of your points, I do disagree that saying the governments creating the accords is unrealistic. It's totally something our shit governments would do under those circumstances. I really don't see that as a valid complaint.