This did not deserve an entire thread to say.
Originally posted by red g jacks
atheism is a stance against theism in general.
It isn't at all. It's a lack of belief in a god or gods. Anything else is specific to the person. Saying it's "against" something is giving anthropomorphic qualities to a neutral philosophical stance.
Originally posted by red g jacks
to disbelieve in one particular form of theism doesn't make you an atheist.
All he's saying is that Christians don't believe in hundreds of gods. So they're "atheist" toward every god but one.
It's a tired argument. Theists use it about atheists as well. You know the famous Muslim phrase "There is no God but God" (or Allah, in the official language of their text). I've heard Muslims say that atheists are halfway to Islam because they agree that "There is no God..." and all they need to do is convince them of this God's veracity. It's as intellectually faulty as theists and atheists both trying to give Hitler to the other side to win some sort of posturing war.
So...
Originally posted by Firefly218
Essentially we are all atheists
...no, we're not. There are massive, life-altering differences between most theists and atheists. To claim this is to ignore so many things in a fruitless attempt to, I dunno, make some point or other.
Change atheist to agnostic and you might have some logical footing. The sociological differences between religions are gigantic enough that trying to do this even with agnosticism is pretty useless, but in a philosophical sense there's an unspoken base of agnosticism beneath most personal belief systems.
Originally posted by Digipractically speaking, without the belief in gods in the first place, there would be no such concept as "atheism." maybe if you view the concept in a philosophical vacuum, it is independent of theism. but the reality is that it has manifested as a rejection of theism.
It isn't at all. It's a lack of belief in a god or gods. Anything else is specific to the person. Saying it's "against" something is giving anthropomorphic qualities to a neutral philosophical stance.
so when you say atheism is a 'lack of belief in god or gods,' you don't mean that it is the lack of gods across the board? you can believe in a multitude of gods and still be an atheist?
All he's saying is that Christians don't believe in hundreds of gods. So they're "atheist" toward every god but one.
i think it would be more accurate to say they are skeptics towards every god but one. to me, atheism is distinct in that it denotes the lack of belief in any sort of deity whatsoever.
Originally posted by Digi
This did not deserve an entire thread to say.
The point seems largely ignored on behalf of theists, especially those who argue that belief is better than disbelief. I'm sure an intelligent individual like yourself didn't need to be reminded, but others did.
It isn't at all. It's a lack of belief in a god or gods.
👆
All he's saying is that Christians don't believe in hundreds of gods. So they're "atheist" toward every god but one.
👆
It's a tired argument. Theists use it about atheists as well. You know the famous Muslim phrase "There is no God but God" (or Allah, in the official language of their text). I've heard Muslims say that atheists are halfway to Islam because they agree that "There is no God..." and all they need to do is convince them of this God's veracity. It's as intellectually faulty as theists and atheists both trying to give Hitler to the other side to win some sort of posturing war.So...
I'm actually not making an argument, I'm pointing out a universal truth. Many Christians ridicule atheists for their disbelief in a God, when they themselves disbelieve thousands of other Gods. I don't understand the relevance of this comment.
...no, we're not. There are massive, life-altering differences between most theists and atheists. To claim this is to ignore so many things in a fruitless attempt to, I dunno, make some point or other.
Yes actually we are. I do understand that theists and atheists have radically distinct ideologies, in a God or no God sense.
However, as you explained yourself, the platform of atheism is to disbelieve in a God. Christians are notorious for disbelieving in other Gods, and are therefore atheists.
My point was, we are all atheists to a certain degree. So theists can stop criticizing atheists and take a look at the validity of their own beliefs/disbeliefs.
Originally posted by red g jacks
practically speaking, without the belief in gods in the first place, there would be no such concept as "atheism."
There is no need to argue on the technicalities of the definition. This thread is aimed at theists who like to criticize atheists for disbelieving their God.
Also for those who say it's better to believe than not to believe. Terrible argument that dumb theists make.
the problem for me is that you have to change the meaning of atheism for this meme to work. you essentially have to make it into the position against any particular god rather than the disbelief of gods in general. this essentially renders the term useless as a descriptive label since as you note everybody would be atheist according to this standard. i think we already have a sufficient term for people arguing against a contentious claim: skeptic.
Setting aside the sociological divide (which is still massive and invalidates this thread's point, imo), there's also the matter degree. Yes, from a numerical standpoint, Christians are "atheists" about 99.999% of gods. But the other thing that ignores is that there's a big, big difference between believing in any god and no god.
It isn't just removing one more god, as the OP seems to suggest. It's an entire mindset of some higher power being there. Eliminate belief in the Christian god and the vast majority of those people would still believe in some higher being. And their lives would be lived under that pretense, maintaining the sociological differences in the process. So Christians aren't 0.0001% away from total atheism. Most of them are so far from it that it can't be accurately quantified.
So no, there's too wide a gap for this point to have any meaning. It's a shallow view of a much more complex topic, and no conclusions can be drawn from observing it. There are valid reasons why Christians shouldn't "give atheists crap" (and vice versa, for that matter). But this is not one of them.
Originally posted by Digi
Setting aside the sociological divide (which is still massive and invalidates this thread's point, imo), there's also the matter degree. Yes, from a numerical standpoint, Christians are "atheists" about 99.999% of gods. But the other thing that ignores is that there's a big, big difference between believing in any god and no god.It isn't just removing one more god, as the OP seems to suggest. It's an entire mindset of some higher power being there. Eliminate belief in the Christian god and the vast majority of those people would still believe in some higher being. And their lives would be lived under that pretense, maintaining the sociological differences in the process. So Christians aren't 0.0001% away from total atheism. Most of them are so far from it that it can't be accurately quantified.
So no, there's too wide a gap for this point to have any meaning. It's a shallow view of a much more complex topic, and no conclusions can be drawn from observing it. There are valid reasons why Christians shouldn't "give atheists crap" (and vice versa, for that matter). But this is not one of them.
I guess I used the wrong term. By "atheism" I didn't mean literal atheism, I guess I meant agnosticism.
The sociological divide is exactly what I'm trying to narrow. If anything, it is the focus of this thread.
Re: We're All Atheists
Originally posted by Firefly218
Christians are atheists to Islam or Hinduism or any of the other million religions in existance.
That's not true. I believe that almost all religions have truth and I believe that almost all religions worship the same God I do, even if they are polytheistic or don't even have a concept of deity.
In that regard, I am pretty much not an atheist to any religion.
And of the religions I don't know, I would be agnostic, not atheistic.
You suck at this thing called trolling. Your thread would probably work on Christian Children or stupid Evangelical Christians.
Re: Re: We're All Atheists
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's not true. I believe that almost all religions have truth and I believe that almost all religions worship the same God I do, even if they are polytheistic or don't even have a concept of deity.In that regard, I am pretty much not an atheist to any religion.
And of the religions I don't know, I would be agnostic, not atheistic.
You suck at this thing called trolling. Your thread would probably work on Christian Children or stupid Evangelical Christians.
Agnosticism is a degree of atheism. And I don't care about your personal relationship to all religions.
I'm speaking in general.
There's actually a huge philosophical and operative difference between Christians not believing in other Gods and Atheists not believing in any Gods, because the universal systems proposed in each model are entirely different. In the first, Christians not believing in Vishnu doesn't change the fact that they envision a Universe created and guided by a higher power, whereas with Atheists the vision is (generally) a Universe of random occurrences. I don't think there's any logical contradiction or hypocrisy in Christians not believing in other Gods.
Originally posted by Digi
It's as intellectually faulty as theists and atheists both trying to give Hitler to the other side to win some sort of posturing war ...
hmmm
Who in History Would YOU Choose to Be?
(Ann Coulter versus Al Franken)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=susZ2ceEHwk
(1 minute 12 seconds)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
There's actually a huge philosophical and operative difference between Christians not believing in other Gods and Atheists not believing in any Gods, because the universal systems proposed in each model are entirely different. In the first, Christians not believing in Vishnu doesn't change the fact that they envision a Universe created and guided by a higher power, whereas with Atheists the vision is (generally) a Universe of random occurrences. I don't think there's any logical contradiction or hypocrisy in Christians not believing in other Gods.
Once again, I am referring to agnostics. Those who dont believe in God in any conventional sense, but still entertain the possibility of a higher, unknown power.
Same way Christians believe in Christianity rather than Hinduism
Atheists/Agnostics believe in science rather than Christianity
The only difference is that atheists have some evidence
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We're All Atheists
Originally posted by dadudemon
You're going to shit yourself...but...almost every last of those Christians you hate are actually agnostic.🙁
ag·nos·tic noun \ag-ˈnäs-tik, əg-\
: a person who does not have a definite belief about whether God exists or not
True Christians are not agnostics. You contradict yourself
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We're All Atheists
Originally posted by Firefly218
ag·nos·tic noun \ag-ˈnäs-tik, əg-\: a person who does not have a definite belief about whether God exists or not
True Christians are not agnostics. You contradict yourself
What is a true Christian? So, is a false Christian an agnostic?