Originally posted by abhilegend
Flash stole her upgrade from Zoom. Later she couldn't beat a wonder woman who was nearly killed by Genocide and was barely able to stand.
The 'upgrade' was simple training, Zoom doesn't have any ability to give anyone powers. 'Stealing speed' like Wally does doesn't permanently remove speed, and nor was her speed speedforce related anyway.
Remember, when she fought Cheetah after Genocide (and there was some recovery time, and WW has a healing factor, so she wasn't at nil or anything. Heck, she goes on to fight Genocide again the same day!) Cheetah was moving so fast Wondy couldn't touch her and was slicing her apart, until an explosion got Minerva off her feat and allowed Wonder Woman to grab her.
That was still rather impressive speed!
Superman was weakened by Circe's trap. J'onn oneshotted the same cheetah.
Superman didn't sense him coming due to the trap, iirc that's all the trap did.
The Cheetahs definitely are more offense than toughness. While they have some feats of tanking stuff, like taking Volt's lightning (iirc he's a Firestorm foe), their toughness is lower than their strength. When they can ambush someone, keep the pressure on, and not give them the chance to fight back, they can take on very strong foes, but they can't take it as well as they can dish it out.
Originally posted by Q99Haha, what? How did she suddenly became faster than Flash in all of two days?
The 'upgrade' was simple training, Zoom doesn't have any ability to give anyone powers. 'Stealing speed' like Wally does doesn't permanently remove speed, and nor was her speed speedforce related anyway.
We see him removing the upgrade from Cheetah. She never displayed that level of speed again.
Remember, when she fought Cheetah after Genocide (and there was some recovery time, and WW has a healing factor, so she wasn't at nil or anything. Heck, she goes on to fight Genocide again the same day!)She specifically stated that she was too weak to stand up straight. She needed Gauntlet of Atlas in the second round.
Cheetah was moving so fast Wondy couldn't touch her and was slicing her apart, until an explosion got Minerva off her feat and allowed Wonder Woman to grab her.A nearly dead wonder woman got blitzed by Cheetah, stop the presses.
That was still rather impressive speed!Nope, not at all.
Superman didn't sense him coming due to the trap, iirc that's all the trap did.Not according to Phil Jimniez.
Originally posted by Phil Jimenez
Re: The Male Cheetah vs. SupermanJust as a behind the scenes note, I remember how difficult it was to even get that scene in the book. It was an enormous hurdle to convince the editors of the notion that the Cheetah, even god-powered, fast enough to fight Wonder Woman, and magical in nature, could sneak up on Superman and tackle him. I remember having to layer in Circe's magic sphere to help deaden Superman's senses and powers even further, and it was understood that this was a one time deal. They basically held their nose at the idea and let me do it, although I think my own editor at the time understood what such an attack could do for Cheetah, in terms of raising the character's viability as a high-level villain.
For what it's worth, I think it helped that it was a male villain. I don't think the editors ever would have approved of a successful attack on Superman if it was the Barbara Minerva Cheetah, or another female version of her.
Just my memories on the topic.
Basically that was a very high feat for Cheetah, superman was weakened, his magical weakness was exploited and it wouldn't happen any time again. Congrats, beating a doubly handicapped superman is SOOO good.
The Cheetahs definitely are more offense than toughness. While they have some feats of tanking stuff, like taking Volt's lightning (iirc he's a Firestorm foe), their toughness is lower than their strength. When they can ambush someone, keep the pressure on, and not give them the chance to fight back, they can take on very strong foes, but they can't take it as well as they can dish it out.She is barely a high meta.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, what? How did she suddenly became faster than Flash in all of two days?We see him removing the upgrade from Cheetah. She never displayed that level of speed again.
We don't QUITE see the upgrade removal. We see the speed removal (I'm a SPEED thief).
Originally posted by abhilegend
And suddenly Cheetah forgot her training in every appearance after WW 214?
Well, speed is always difficult to show, especially at uber levels. Intelligences is another.
After Morrison, Flash didn't do his IMP - does that mean he can't do it anymore?
I have just never seen Flash 'removing training' from someone, that's all. Speed, yes, and she's welcome to give me a snog, but not training.
And I'm usually the first to try and apply exotic Flash Speed Force powers.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, speed is always difficult to show, especially at uber levels. Intelligences is another.After Morrison, Flash didn't do his IMP - does that mean he can't do it anymore?
I have just never seen Flash 'removing training' from someone, that's all. Speed, yes, and she's welcome to give me a snog, but not training.
And I'm usually the first to try and apply exotic Flash Speed Force powers.
Originally posted by abhilegend
He has shown being at infinite mass in Kelly's run, so yes it did. The notion that Cheetah was faster than Flash after WW 214 but never showed it is laughable to the extreme.
He has?
I know he had eyes of near infinite mass when he saved that Korean city.
What time-scale do you assign to powers? So if character A does something, how much of a gap are you going to give to that person before you say, you know what, that person can't do it/doesn't know how to do it anymore?
And does this mean that Flash can take memories from people by touching them? Because you KNOW I'm going to use this lol.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He has?I know he had eyes of near infinite mass when he saved that Korean city.
What time-scale do you assign to powers? So if character A does something, how much of a gap are you going to give to that person before you say, you know what, that person can't do it/doesn't know how to do it anymore?
And does this mean that Flash can take memories from people by touching them? Because you KNOW I'm going to use this lol.
If the said upgrade was shown to be negated in the very same issue and the character never shows it again? Its no longer viable for the character.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yup, the same.If the said upgrade was shown to be negated in the very same issue and the character never shows it again? Its no longer viable for the character.
So can Flash steal memories? As he's never been depowered (up until Flashpoint, obv).
And if he were to say fight Deathstroke, he can remove all of Slade's training by touching him?
Slippery slope - not sure you want to have that kinda conclusion.
I simply see it as Flash stole her speed (he's a speed thief, not a training/memory/upgrade thief) and later writers have forgotten about her Zoom training - considering how little she is used, not surprising.
And in this fight, she would get her speed back and decimate Val.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So can Flash steal memories? As he's never been depowered (up until Flashpoint, obv).And if he were to say fight Deathstroke, he can remove all of Slade's training by touching him?
Slippery slope - not sure you want to have that kinda conclusion.
I simply see it as Flash stole her speed (he's a speed thief, not a training/memory/upgrade thief) and later writers have forgotten about her Zoom training - considering how little she is used, not surprising.
And in this fight, she would get her speed back and decimate Val.
srsly
Originally posted by abhilegend
Zoom upgraded her speed, Flash stole the extra speed. Its not so hard to understand. She has never shown such speed again, if she had done it its your job to provide it. Flash has nothing to do with this thread.srsly
Not doubting he stole her speed. At all. It's there in black and white, from the lips of Wally himself. I'm a speed thief.
BUT, stealing speed is very different from:
Originally posted by abhilegend
And suddenly Cheetah forgot her training in every appearance after WW 214?
Zoom NEVER gave her speed. The speed was always hers. Once she undid the mental blocks that she had imposed on herself, she could have unlimited speed - and Zoom knows a thing or two about speed.
Originally posted by abhilegend
He has shown being at infinite mass in Kelly's run, so yes it did. The notion that Cheetah was faster than Flash after WW 214 but never showed it is laughable to the extreme.
I wouldn't say she was ever faster than Flash, she caught him once, so it's more like she's close to as fast... and she did show it in the fight we were discussing before.
Sure, Wondy wasn't in great shape, but she was still moving around like a blur.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85You are just obfuscating the real point. Who cares what Wally said, Cheetah NEVER showed such speed again.
Not doubting he stole her speed. At all. It's there in black and white, from the lips of Wally himself. I'm a speed thief.BUT, stealing speed is very different from:
Zoom NEVER gave her speed. The speed was always hers. Once she undid the mental blocks that she had imposed on herself, she could have unlimited speed - and Zoom knows a thing or two about speed.That's a load of BS and you know it, Zoloman was literally insane.
Originally posted by abhilegend
You are just obfuscating the real point. Who cares what Wally said, Cheetah NEVER showed such speed again.That's a load of BS and you know it, Zoloman was literally insane.
O...K....
So your interpretation is that Zoom lent (or gave) her speed? Which Wally then took?
And your proof is that:
A: Zoom was crazy when he explained Cheetah's powers to her;
B: writers for a minor villain from a minor superheroine's rogue's gallery (let's not split hairs here; outside of the JLA, WW does not get many showings when compared to say, Batman/Superman) never showed it again; and
C: Wally said he stole her speed?
C, no question about it. I totally agree with you. But A/B?
Seriously, go and see how many showings Cheetah has had since she tangled with Flash. Had you said she lost her speed after Circe reverted her back to her human form, then yeah, I can see that. But I am more inclined to say that writers forgot her training in between the speedstealing and the reverting.
Writers forget powers all the time. Don't act as if they respect canonicity 100%, they don't even do it with their main guys, let alone Cheetah.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
O...K....So your interpretation is that Zoom lent (or gave) her speed? Which Wally then took?
And your proof is that:
A: Zoom was crazy when he explained Cheetah's powers to her;B: writers for a minor villain from a minor superheroine's rogue's gallery (let's not split hairs here; outside of the JLA, WW does not get many showings when compared to say, Batman/Superman) never showed it again; and
C: Wally said he stole her speed?
C, no question about it. I totally agree with you. But A/B?
Seriously, go and see how many showings Cheetah has had since she tangled with Flash. Had you said she lost her speed after Circe reverted her back to her human form, then yeah, I can see that. But I am more inclined to say that writers forgot her training in between the speedstealing and the reverting.
Writers forget powers all the time. Don't act as if they respect canonicity 100%, they don't even do it with their main guys, let alone Cheetah.
