One Sith VS Sith Order (SWTOR ERA)

Started by S_W_LeGenD2 pages

While their is technology gap here, I am not sure if it is going to make much difference.

It shall be noted that Republic's Hammerhead class cruisers were theoretically no match against superior cruisers made by Sith Empires but they still performed well in battles for a long time.

Technological advances are noticeable in later eras but firepower factor is also important.

TOR era Sith Empire features capabilities to produce endless supply of powerful cruisers and some of its superweapons can solo fleets and even destroy entire worlds. Nothing gets much better then this unless a Death Star is taken in to consideration.

TOR era Sith Empire represents the epitome of what Sith Order should be on the whole.

This thread contains some useful information about technology of TOR era Sith Empire: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t588347.html

Heck, it is noted in Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side that much of the latest technology is based on technological concepts of TOR era Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
No, aside from being captured by a team of Jedi, showing a team of Sith could do the same, I don't think their fear powers would even *work* on Sith Troopers.

And even their fear effect isn't wide-spread enough to overcome the tech difference....


So you think that their Force powers won't be effective against individuals of legacy era? Are you high?

Dread Masters are a big asset for TOR era Sith Empire and they can easily turn the tide of battles from safe distance with their unprecedented Force powers.

Heck, Sith Emperor have the option to pull off galaxy-busting ritual with aid of his minions to terminate everything if conflict does goes bad.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]While their is technology gap here, I am not sure if it is going to make much difference.

It shall be noted that Republic's Hammerhead class cruisers were theoretically no match against superior cruisers made by Sith Empires but they still performed well in battles for a long time.

Yes, but that's one generation difference.

This is, well, Harrower < Venator < Imperial < Imperial 2 < Pellaeon < Imperious / Dragon Ship (which are starting to come on line during the war). And there may possibly be steps between Harrower and Venator too.

Harrowers are bigger and stronger than Hammerheads, but based on basically the same tech. Pellaeons are bigger by a wider margin and have stronger, faster firing guns, better shields, faster hyperdrive, you name it.

And Dragon Ships carrying Annihilator fighters were slaughtering Pallaeons. In Legacy: War the Galactic Alliance fleet and the Fel fleet forced a confrontation on Coruscant as soon as they could because they knew they could not last against the power of the new Annihilators with their insane firepower.

Fighters in general is an area where clear, clear advancement is shown. During the course of the New Republic, X-wings go from being top-of-the-line and worth a couple times their number in TIEs, to in need of an upgrade to face newer fighters. The Sith Empire fighters are basically fodder to TIE Predators, Sith-Imperial Fighters, and of course Annihilators.


TOR era Sith Empire features capabilities to produce endless supply of powerful cruisers and some of its superweapons can solo fleets and even destroy entire worlds. Nothing gets much better then this unless a Death Star is taken in to consideration.

They only temporarily had the ability to produce endless before the Sun Razer was blown up, and it's a stationary, fragile target that's listed in the history books.

And their powerful cruisers.... are still a bit smaller than, and likely weaker than, the One Sith's Pellaeon ships. They can't stand against Annihilators or a large OS fleet.


Heck, it is noted in Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side that much of the latest technology is based on technological concepts of TOR era Sith Empire.

Sure... based on and improved. Palpatine's Empire had much passed the TOR Sith Empire in battleships.

And the One Sith has force tech unlike anything seen in the TOR Empire in their Annihilators.


So you think that their Force powers won't be effective against individuals of legacy era? Are you high?

Dread Masters are a big asset for TOR era Sith Empire and they can easily turn the tide of battles from safe distance with their unprecedented Force powers.

Dread Master's power causes fear, Sith Troopers are cyborgs (and despite the word 'trooper' are high-end forces, stronger than rank and file sith). I don't think they're physically capable of feeling fear. They are designed for total obedience.

The Dread Masters cannot be everywhere to begin with- even with their capabilities turning several fleet battles, they didn't cause the Republic fleet to collapse. If they are the only force capable of allowing Sith Empire forces victory (I.e. 6 battles happen throughout the galaxy. The DMs make Legacy forces panic and fail in one of them. Legacy Imperial forces slaughter in 5 others. Net advantage, One Sith), and the enemy additional has a segment of forces immune to them? Big trouble.

There is a point where fancy tricks and small superweapons aren't enough against military technological superiority, and I'd argue the Galactic Empire had crossed that point, let alone the Legacy Empire.


Heck, Sith Emperor have the option to pull off galaxy-busting ritual with aid of his minions to terminate everything if conflict does goes bad.

There is that possibility, but if the ritual can be interrupted, then that's it, the Sith Empire doesn't really have any other way to win.

It's ritual or defeat, they can't win a war.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but that's one generation difference.

This is, well, Harrower < Venator < Imperial < Imperial 2 < Pellaeon < Imperious / Dragon Ship (which are starting to come on line during the war). And there may possibly be steps between Harrower and Venator too.

Harrowers are bigger and stronger than Hammerheads, but based on basically the same tech. Pellaeons are bigger by a wider margin and have stronger, faster firing guns, better shields, faster hyperdrive, you name it.

And Dragon Ships carrying Annihilator fighters were slaughtering Pallaeons. In Legacy: War the Galactic Alliance fleet and the Fel fleet forced a confrontation on Coruscant as soon as they could because they knew they could not last against the power of the new Annihilators with their insane firepower.

Fighters in general is an area where clear, clear advancement is shown. During the course of the New Republic, X-wings go from being top-of-the-line and worth a couple times their number in TIEs, to in need of an upgrade to face newer fighters. The Sith Empire fighters are basically fodder to TIE Predators, Sith-Imperial Fighters, and of course Annihilators.


Actually Harrower-class dreadnaughts are far more advanced then Hammerhead-class dreadnaughts in all aspects.

"The mainstay of the Imperial navy and active symbol of the Empire's power, [I]Harrower-class dreadnaughts are among the most powerful and deadly warships ever designed. The ship's wedge-shaped hull allows virtually all of its firepower to be concentrated directly forward, while also helping to minimize the ship's massive profile and deflect damage from head-on fire."[/I]

Standard armaments include Turbolaser cannons, Quad-laser turrets, ion cannons, proton torpedo tubes and concussion missile launchers. In addition, these dreadnaughts could be modified to carry superweapons with which they could solo whole fleets or even one-shot entire worlds. Basically, a Harrower-class dreadnaught packs superior firepower then lets say a Venator-class dreadnaught on standard armament front and superior firepower then lets say both Imperial I-class and Imperial-II class dreadnaughts or possibly any dreadnaught with superweapons.

I'd say that Harrower-class dreadnaughts are a threat to any other dreadnaught in the mythos.

Do not get fooled by technology progression in Star Wars, older weapons are not necessarily inferior or useless in this mythos. Just look at the evolution of droids, you will find SWTOR droids being more impressive on the whole in comparison to those during PT/OT periods.

Republic had to introduce Valor-class dreadnaughts to stand a chance against Imperial navy.

But the main point is that war is costly business, and it will be costly to both sides in this contest.

Originally posted by Q99
They only temporarily had the ability to produce endless before the Sun Razer was blown up, and it's a stationary, fragile target that's listed in the history books.

Well, I am not talking about lore related developments, I am assuming both forces at their best.

Originally posted by Q99
And their powerful cruisers.... are still a bit smaller than, and likely weaker than, the One Sith's Pellaeon ships. They can't stand against Annihilators or a large OS fleet.

See above

Originally posted by Q99
Sure... based on and improved. Palpatine's Empire had much passed the TOR Sith Empire in battleships.

See above

Based on, yes.

Exact schematics for improvements, not so sure. Their would be improvements in some respects but difference isn't significant.

Originally posted by Q99
And the One Sith has force tech unlike anything seen in the TOR Empire in their Annihilators.

Really? Harrower-class dreadnaught, when modified with superweapons can solo entire fleets and even one-shot worlds. I don't see what can be much better then this.

I am not claiming that Annihilator-class dreadnaughts won't be a threat, they are huge. However, even they can be one-shotted by a Harrower-class dreadnaught based superweapon.

Originally posted by Q99
Dread Master's power causes fear, Sith Troopers are cyborgs (and despite the word 'trooper' are high-end forces, stronger than rank and file sith). I don't think they're physically capable of feeling fear. They are designed for total obedience.

Force > anything.

Cyborgs are not immune to Force-manipulation.

"When the Sith Empire attempted to conquer the Republic, the Dread Masters used their powers to destroy entire Republic fleets."

I don't think it is possible to destroy entire fleets with just fear. Dread Masters packed extraordinary powers on individual basis, imagine their effectiveness and potency with combined might.

FYI: TOR era Sith Empire had plenty of cyborgs too.

Originally posted by Q99
The Dread Masters cannot be everywhere to begin with- even with their capabilities turning several fleet battles, they didn't cause the Republic fleet to collapse. If they are the only force capable of allowing Sith Empire forces victory (I.e. 6 battles happen throughout the galaxy. The DMs make Legacy forces panic and fail in one of them. Legacy Imperial forces slaughter in 5 others. Net advantage, One Sith), and the enemy additional has a segment of forces immune to them? Big trouble.

Well, the Republic is too damn enormous. It takes time to exterminate a civilization of such a magnitude.

And, of-course, in Star Wars, good guys always win. Doesn't matters how illogical and unbelievable.

Originally posted by Q99
There is a point where fancy tricks and small superweapons aren't enough against military technological superiority, and I'd argue the Galactic Empire had crossed that point, let alone the Legacy Empire.

I am sorry, you are not thinking clearly. See above.

Originally posted by Q99
There is that possibility, but if the ritual can be interrupted, then that's it, the Sith Empire doesn't really have any other way to win.

It's ritual or defeat, they can't win a war.


TOR era Sith Empire can pull off a victory, it has ample quality and muscle for this task.

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Sources: SWTOR(E)


Standard armaments include Turbolaser cannons, Quad-laser turrets, ion cannons, proton torpedo tubes and concussion missile launchers. In addition, these dreadnaughts could be modified to carry superweapons with which they could solo whole fleets or even one-shot entire worlds. Basically, a Harrower-class dreadnaught packs superior firepower then lets say a Venator-class dreadnaught on standard armament front and superior firepower then lets say both Imperial I-class and Imperial-II class dreadnaughts or possibly any dreadnaught with superweapons.

Standard armament comparable to a Venator? Highly unlikely! They're smaller than Venators by a good margin, and we have no indication of any tech superiority by that point. (And note, during the Empire era tech does improve even in ships of the same size, ISD 1 and 2, and by Legacy a similar improvement has happened. A GA Scythe class, which is about Harrower size, has firepower more akin to an ISD).

By the Anaxes War College System of later eras, Harrowers are not even classed as dreadnaughts, they're heavy cruisers and on the small side for heavy cruisers, not even Star Destroyers.

By the Galactic Empire, using the Anaxes War College System, Heavy Cruiser refers to 800-1000 meter ships, Star Destroyer 1000 to 2000, Battlecruiser 2,000 to 5,000, and Dreadnaught has been bumped up to 5,000. There's ship sizes that do not even exist in the TOR era in there.

The superweapon does grant superior firepower, but it's small in number, has a mere one manufacturing facility that's easily targeted, and still on a small, relatively fragile package.


I'd say that Harrower-class dreadnaughts are a threat to any other dreadnaught in the mythos.

It's 800 meters long. Pellaeons are like 1,500 or so, and more massive than ISDs. Dragon Ships are like 2,500 or so (making them Battlecruisers).


Do not get fooled by technology progression in Star Wars, older weapons are not necessarily inferior or useless in this mythos.

No, not useless, but newer ones are still better even if they improve by inches over a long period, and by Legacy we have an explicit increase in effectiveness of guns and a very serious increase in ship sizes.

Well, I am not talking about lore related developments, I am assuming both forces at their best.

The Sun Razer is easily removed from the picture, is my point, and many of it's 'superweapons' include special ships that aren't all that special by OS standards (like Malgus's flagship).


I am not claiming that Annihilator-class dreadnaughts won't be a threat, they are huge. However, even they can be one-shotted by a Harrower-class dreadnaught based superweapon.

No, no, you misread.

Annihilator class fighters. Their Annihilator class fighters can destroy Star Destroyers in short order. Their force-guns punch through capship shields.

As in, a dozen Annihilator fighters can hyperdrive in- another OS advantage, all their fighters have hyperdrive and shields, TOR sith fighters have to be carried in- and kill the Harrowers in a system.

Without capital ships, just fighters.

Force > anything.

Cyborgs are not immune to Force-manipulation.

They are immune to mental force manipulation, I'm pretty sure.

I mean, they're *also* strong force users, so that also provides protection as well, but if you are designed to be not capable of breaking and running, you won't.

"When the Sith Empire attempted to conquer the Republic, the Dread Masters used their powers to destroy entire Republic fleets."

I don't think it is possible to destroy entire fleets with just fear. Dread Masters packed extraordinary powers on individual basis, imagine their effectiveness and potency with combined might.

Panicking people cannot operate their ships. It is described as a fear effect that cripples people with terror, this is specifically how it works. A corvette could shoot down a dreadnaught under it's effects due to the crew being useless.

And it did not prevent a Jedi strike force from confronting and capturing all of them in the first place, so it is not irresistable.

FYI: TOR era Sith Empire had plenty of cyborgs too.

Did they have cyborgs who were also powerful force users? And were these cyborgs operating their fleets?

Cyborgs are normally used in small quantities, and normally are just people with limbs and such, not brain control.

TOR era Sith Empire can pull off a victory, it has ample quality and muscle for this task.

It should have inferior quantity outside of Sith Lords too.

They have half the galaxy. The One Sith have 80% of a larger galaxy.

Here is the Size of One Sith Territory

Here is the size of known space as-of the New Sith Wars (and the mandalorian wars of the KotoR era. TOR should be somewhere between these two)

Known space has increased by about a third since the NSW, and about doubled from the KotoR era. And the TOR Empire only had *half* of the territory of their time.

The TOR Empire had a serious problem with overextending even with what they had, that was why they signed the truce.

If the TOR pushed and increased their territory by half, forcing them to spread their forces thinner and making them nuch more vulnerable, the One Sith would basically be able to shrug it due to their huge territory, and then turn around and devastate them in return.

Or to put it another way: The Sith stalled out against a foe with fewer, smaller, lower-tech ships and smaller territory.

Once the One Sith got it's Annihilators, it was steamrolling Legacy-era opposition.