^ If you're suggesting that Orion was amped, it'd mean that Darkseid would have also been amped by proxy, due to the 'power-equalization' trait they naturally share as father and son:
http://i.imgur.com/ACOX9Am.jpg
...But we know for sure that Darkseid wasn't amped during Countdown, therefore Orion couldn't have been amped either.
Chalk it up to one of the many inconsistencies found in Countdown. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
^ If you're suggesting that Orion was amped, it'd mean that Darkseid would have also been amped by proxy, due to the 'power-equalization' trait they naturally share as father and son:
http://i.imgur.com/ACOX9Am.jpg
...But we know for sure that Darkseid wasn't amped during Countdown, therefore Orion couldn't have been amped either.Chalk it up to one of the many inconsistencies found in Countdown. 👆
Anyway, he didn't look any stronger than usual. He was matching darkseid in strength while Superman was straight up beating the shit out of him. His energy powers were sure as heck amped.
Faulty reasoning, you say? My friend, I am simply presenting on panel facts--facts presented during DotNG, ironically enough. That said, if Orion would have been amped like you're suggesting, then Darkseid would have been amped as well, thanks to the power-sharing trait they naturally share:
...But again: Darkseid wasn't amped during Countdown, therefore we know Orion couldn't have been amped either.
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Aside from that, hopefully you're aware that DotNG and the main Countdown series really don't like up. At all. none
Example: In the former, we have Darkseid acquiring the cumulative dead New God power by concocting the SoulFire Formula and drinking it. In the latter, we have Darkseid storing all the dead new God power within Jimmy, and trying to extract it from him physically. In the former, Darkseid actually managed to gain nigh-omnipotence. In the latter, he was never able to. That is just one inconsistency of many.
Originally posted by Galan007But that's Orion's soul which was amped on Soulfire formula. Orion was alive in Countdown.
Faulty reasoning, you say? My friend, I am simply presenting on panel facts--facts presented during DotNG, ironically enough. That said, if Orion would have been amped like you're suggesting, then Darkseid would have been amped as well, thanks to the power-sharing trait they naturally share:...But again: Darkseid wasn't amped during Countdown, therefore we know Orion couldn't have been amped either.
Aside from that, hopefully you're aware that DotNG and the main Countdown series really don't like up. At all. noneWe've discussed it before galan and I'm not the only one who thought Orion was amped.Example: In the former, we have Darkseid acquiring the cumulative dead New God power by concocting the SoulFire Formula and drinking it. In the latter, we have Darkseid storing all the dead new God power within Jimmy, and trying to extract it from him physically. That is just one inconsistency of many.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14076304#post14076304
And as explained in Final Crisis, the fights in countdown and DOTNG were just a reflection of the true fight fought in heaven between Darkseid and Orion.
Originally posted by abhilegendThat really doesn't change what I've said. If Orion would have been amped during Countdown, Darkseid would have been amped during Countdown, due to their power-sharing trait.
But that's Orion's soul which was amped on Soulfire formula. Orion was alive in Countdown.
The fact that Darkseid wasn't amped confirms that Orion wasn't amped either, imo.
Originally posted by abhilegendYes, and my opinion remains the same: no evidence confirms that Orion was amped during Countdown. If a character is intended to be amped, typically writers go out of their way to make it known to the readers. Nothing to that effect was mentioned for Orion, hence why I am hesitant to agree with you.
We've discussed it before galan and I'm not the only one who thought Orion was amped.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14076304#post14076304
And as explained in Final Crisis, the fights in countdown and DOTNG were just a reflection of the true fight fought in heaven between Darkseid and Orion.
It was simply a very high-end showing for Orion... Well above his 'norm'. Almost every herald leveler in comics has stepped outside their tier at some point though, so it shouldn't really be this big of a deal tbh. My guess is that you simply don't want to admit that an unamped Orion can handle Superman so effortlessly. To that I say: get over it. 👆
Shit, Orion has also held his own against a sun-amped Superman in the past. It happens. Doesn't make Superman any less powerful.
Originally posted by Galan007Why? Darkseid had lost the power of new gods at that point. It was Source's power which would've been amping Orion then.
And? That really doesn't change what I've said. If Orion would have been amped during Countdown, Darkseid would have been amped during Countdown, due to their power-sharing trait.
The fact that Darkseid wasn't amped confirms that Orion wasn't amped either, imo.It doesn't. IMO.
Yes, and my opinion remains the same: no evidence confirms that Orion was amped during Countdown. If a character is intended to be amped, typically writers go out of their way to make it known to the readers. Nothing to that effect was mentioned for Orion, hence why I am hesitant to agree with you.Then you'd be showing me Orion casually tossing the ****ing JLA around like toys AT LEAST ONCE in the comic?
It was simply a very high-end showing for Orion... Well outside his normal tier. Almost every character has that type of feat.Not by that comparison.
My guess is that you simply don't want to admit that an unamped Orion can handle Superman so effortlessly.Heh, putting words in my mouth now? Superman walked through omega beams just one issue prior, one shot of OB and Orion was on the ground.
To that I say: get over it.Lulz.
Shit, Orion has also held his own against a sun-amped Superman in the past. It happens. Doesn't make Superman any less powerful.Superman was massively holding back. But yeah, Orion isn't even as impressive as wonder woman if we go by Doomsday Wars.
👆
Originally posted by abhilegendExcept for the fact that nothing of the sort was stated, or even alluded to. Furthermore, Countdown Orion acted his normal, berserker self. The Source-amped Orion shown in DotNG, on the other hand, acted much different... He never even uttered a word, or display any sort of emotion. In that regard they were almost entirely different characters.
Why? Darkseid had lost the power of new gods at that point. It was Source's power which would've been amping Orion then.
Like I said, there is simply no definitive proof to suggest that Orion was amped. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary.
Originally posted by abhilegendLol, on what other occasion has the JLA ever tried to interfere in a battle between a berserker Orion(the most enraged we've ever seen him) and Darkseid?
Then you'd be showing me Orion casually tossing the ****ing JLA around like toys AT LEAST ONCE in the comic?
Exactly. 🙂
Originally posted by abhilegendYou're right. Many heralds have preformed feats well beyond that(Supes, Surfer and Thor are prime examples.) Orion's feat is mediocre next to some of the shit they've pulled. 🙂
Not by that comparison.
Originally posted by abhilegendLol. YOU are the only one who is acting like Superman is somehow being 'attacked' here. You are aware that not every thread must involve him, right? 👆
Heh, putting words in my mouth now? Superman walked through omega beams just one issue prior, one shot of OB and Orion was on the ground. Lulz.
Must sleep. Will respond to your inevitable post tomorrow. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007Really? It was outright stated that Orion's fight with darkseid was just a rflection of a single fight.
Except for the fact that nothing of the sort was stated, or even alluded to.
Furthermore, Countdown Orion acted his normal, berserker self. The Source-amped Orion shown in DotNG, on the other hand, acted much different... He never even uttered a word, or display any sort of emotion. In that regard they were almost entirely different characters.It was the soul of Orion in DOTNG. How many times that has to be stated?
Like I said, there is simply no definitive proof to suggest that Orion was amped. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary.Haha, sure.
Lol, on what other occasion has the JLA ever tried to interfere in a battle between a berserker Orion(the most enraged we've ever seen him) and Darkseid?Orion was berserker almost always in JLA. And lol @ "most enraged we've ever seen". He isn't hulk where his power goes up with his anger.
Exactly. 🙂IKR.
You're right. Many heralds have preformed feats well beyond that(Supes, Surfer and Thor are prime examples.) Orion's feat is mediocre next to some of the shit they've pulled. 🙂Heh, name one time Surfer say came barging in and tore out the heart of a guy Thor was having problems with?
Lol. YOU are the only one who is acting like Superman is somehow being 'attacked' here. You are aware that not every thread must involve him, right? 👆You were the one using Superman as a measuring stick in the first place. Like Orion actually beat Superman there.
Must sleep. Will respond to your inevitable post tomorrow. 🙂Sleep well.
Originally posted by abhilegendCool. Now stop avoiding the question and shown me where it is stated that Orion was amped during Countdown #2 specifically.
Really? It was outright stated that Orion's fight with darkseid was just a rflection of a single fight.It was the soul of Orion in DOTNG. How many times that has to be stated?
If you fail to provide said evidence(again), and/or attempt yet another red herring, then I will continue assuming no such evidence exists and that you have absolutely nothing of merit to substantiate your opinion. 🙂
Originally posted by abhilegendEvidently you don't know much about Orion if you believe his berserker mindset is no stronger than his Motherbox-governed mindset. 😉
He isn't hulk where his power goes up with his anger.
Originally posted by abhilegendYou're missing the point. Several characters(especially in the herald-class) have stepped beyond that tier. Heck, Thor has multiple trans-level, possibly even Skyfather-level feats... And Supes has feats that are damn near abstract-level.
Heh, name one time Surfer say came barging in and tore out the heart of a guy Thor was having problems with?
What I'm saying is: shit like Orion pulled in Countdown happens a lot in comics--it really shouldn't be this big of a deal. In Orion's case specifically, he was prophesized to kill Darkseid--that has always been his destiny... But the fact that you are so bothered by him finally fulfilling said prophecy pleases me to my very core. 🙂
Originally posted by abhilegendNo, I simply pointed out that imo, the only reason you are so adamant that Orion was amped during Countdown is because you don't like the idea that an unamped Orion could dismiss Supes so easily... And I was right, it seems. 👆
You were the one using Superman as a measuring stick in the first place. Like Orion actually beat Superman there.
Wipe the tears from your eyes and accept it. That feat certainly doesn't make Orion superior to Supes on average. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007It was explained that the fight in DOTNG and countdown were just a reflection of a fight in a higher plane. If Orion was amped in DOTNG, he was amped in countdown.
Cool. Now stop avoiding the question and shown me where it is stated that Orion was amped during Countdown #2 specifically.
If you fail to provide said evidence(again), and/or attempt yet another red herring, then I will continue assuming no such evidence exists and that you have absolutely nothing of merit to substantiate your opinion. 🙂Same old debate tactic from you galan. I already provided proof that the fights in DOTNG and Countdown were retconned to be the same fight.
Evidently you don't know much about Orion if you believe his berserker mindset is no stronger than his Motherbox-governed mindset. 😉Orion has ditched his motherbox several times, yet never showed such energy powers.
You're missing the point. Several characters(especially in the herald-class) have stepped beyond that tier. Heck, Thor has multiple trans-level, possibly even Skyfather-level feats... And Supes has feats that are damn near abstract-level.But those don't come compared to another top tier's expense. Have you seen Superman tearing out the heart of a guy captain marvel was struggling against?
What I'm saying is: shit like Orion pulled in Countdown happens a lot in comics--it really shouldn't be this big of a deal. In Orion's case specifically, he was prophesized to kill Darkseid--that has always been his destiny... But the fact that you are so bothered by him finally fulfilling said prophecy pleases me to my very core. 🙂What can I say! I was always partial to the story where Superman kills Darkseid!!!!!!!!
No, I simply pointed out that imo, the only reason you are so adamant that Orion was amped during Countdown is because you don't like the idea that an unamped Orion could dismiss Supes so easily... And I was right, it seems. 👆Heh, throwing someone away doesn't means much. Doc Samson once threw Hercules, simon, namor and tony off him. I was questioning why you thought Orion was unamped when he was retconned into being amped.
Wipe the tears from your eyes and accept it.I CAN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That feat certainly doesn't make Orion superior to Supes on average. 🙂😂
You can be so predictable sometimes.
Originally posted by abhilegendSo in short: you cannot provide any such evidence. Didn't think so. The fact of the matter is: absolutely nothing from Countdown so much as hinted at Orion being amped. In fact, the notion of him being amped can be further disproven by his overall demeanor: he acted much differently in Countdown(when no amp was alluded to) than he acted during DotNG(when he had a legitimate/stated amp from the Source.) The difference between these two iterations was night and day, in fact.
It was explained that the fight in DOTNG and countdown were just a reflection of a fight in a higher plane. If Orion was amped in DOTNG, he was amped in countdown.Same old debate tactic from you galan. I already provided proof that the fights in DOTNG and Countdown were retconned to be the same fight.
...And this is all secondary to the point I've been driving home from the start: we know for a fact that Darkseid was NOT amped during Countdown, as he FAILED to glean his amp from Jimmy. Therefore we also know for a fact that Orion was NOT amped during Countdown either. How can I be so certain? Because they, being father/son, naturally SHARE/EQUALIZE amps. This, again, was explicitly stated on panel:
In summary: if Orion would have been amped, as you're baselessly suggesting, then Darkseid would have undoubtedly been amped as a result. However, Darkseid wasn't amped, thus Orion wasn't amped. Simple is simple. 🙂
Originally posted by abhilegendAnd Superman has only saved the Omniverse once by vibrating, and has only repaired a tear in the fabric of reality with his HV a single time as well. This doesn't mean such feats aren't within his ability. Try to think outside the box with more than just your 'pet' characters, please. 🙂
Orion has ditched his motherbox several times, yet never showed such energy powers.
Originally posted by abhilegendNo, but I have seen him literally SING a being out of existence, of whom the entire MULTIVERSE was 'struggling against'. 🙂
But those don't come compared to another top tier's expense. Have you seen Superman tearing out the heart of a guy captain marvel was struggling against?
Originally posted by abhilegend...Except that little blurb from Darkseid was not a 'formal' retcon by any stretch. Formal retcons are NEVER left simply as ambiguous comments that different readers can interpret in different ways. Ever.
Heh, throwing someone away doesn't means much. Doc Samson once threw Hercules, simon, namor and tony off him. I was questioning why you thought Orion was unamped when he was retconned into being amped.
Formal retcons are outright stated on panel--and explicitly so. No room for reader-interpretation is left to be had. 🙂
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Anyway, I've more than proven my point here, and have no further interest in this circular discussion. You may have the last word if you must(I know you desperately crave it.) Good day. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007Already did.
So in short: you cannot provide any such evidence.
Didn't think so. The fact of the matter is: absolutely nothing from Countdown so much as hinted at Orion being amped. In fact, the notion of him being amped can be further disproven by his overall demeanor: he acted much differently in Countdown(when no amp was alluded to) than he acted during DotNG(when he had a legitimate/stated amp from the Source.) The difference between these two iterations was night and day, in fact.That can be atrributed to different reflections of the true fight fought in heaven. The simple fact is that Morrison retconned the fight in Final Crisis. You have to deal with it.
NRAMA: So. So in essence, you were handed a plate where between Death of the New Gods and Countdown, Orion appeared to have died twice. Picking up with him here, did he wander to the docks from the battle in Countdown #1, or are his terminal injuries from something else?GM: Again, bear in mind thatCountdown only finished last month so Final Crisis was already well underway long before Countdown and although I’ve tried to avoid contradicting much of the twists and turns of that book as I can with the current Final Crisis scripts, the truth is, we were too far down the road of our own book to reflect everything that went on in Countdown, hence the disconnects that online commentators, sadly, seem to find more fascinating than the stories themselves.
Orion’s appearance on the docks and the Guardians’ response in Final Crisis #1 was written and drawn first. Jim Starlin then created Orion’s death scene in Death Of The New Gods to lead into the War God’s appearance in Final Crisis #1, so we refer back to Jim’s scene in Final Crisis #3. When I wrote that scene, Orion’s terminal injuries were a result of the mysterious bolt of light which Jim hit him with in Death Of The New Gods #6. By the time Countdown #1 came out, I was working on Final Crisis #4 and #5 and JG was drawing #3, so we were already well into our own story and unable to change it to match Countdown.
NRAMA: And so you were left with a handful of continuity issues as result - – why didn’t the Guardians call a 1011 when all the other New Gods died? Why didn’t Superman recount his experiences in Death of the New Gods when he was talking about the New Gods to the JLA? How did the villains capture J’onn? Obviously, if you dealt in all the minutia of every storyline since Identity Crisis or earlier, you’d go nuts – so what was your personal line in the sand that you used in writing Final Crisis in regards to what “mattered” and what didn’t?
GM: What mattered to me was what had already been written, drawn or plotted in Final Crisis. The Guardians didn’t call 1011 when Lightray and the other gods died in Countdown because, again, Final Crisis was already underway before Countdown came out.
Why didn’t Superman recount his experiences from DOTNG ? Because those experiences hadn’t been thought up or written when I completed Final Crisis #1. If there was only me involved, Orion would have been the first dead New God we saw in a DC comic, starting off the chain of events that we see in Final Crisis. [b]As it is, the best I can do is suggest that the somewhat contradictory depictions of Orion and Darkseid’s last-last-last battle that we witnessed in Countdown and DOTNG recently were apocryphal attempts to describe an indescribable cosmic event.
I'm not the one denying the blatant truth here.
...And this is all secondary to the point I've been driving home from the start: we know for a fact that Darkseid was NOT amped during Countdown, as he FAILED to glean his amp from Jimmy. Therefore we also know for a fact that Orion was NOT amped during Countdown either. How can I be so certain? Because they, being father/son, naturally SHARE/EQUALIZE amps. This, again, was explicitly stated on panel:Repeating yourself again and again doesn't changes anything. You're using the same contradictory nature between DOTNG and Countdown for two things at once here. Darkseid wasn't amped on soulfire formula and neither was Orion in Countdown. Jimmy had nothing to do with new gods power in DOTNG, Darkseid already had the power when he teleported away in DOTNG etc. You CAN'T use DOTNG as any kind of proof for Countdown and yet here you're doing it. SMH.
In summary: if Orion would have been amped, as you're baselessly suggesting, then Darkseid would have undoubtedly been amped as a result. However, Darkseid wasn't amped, thus Orion wasn't amped. Simple is simple. 🙂That's as worthless circular logic as I've ever seen.👆
And Superman has only saved the Omniverse once by vibrating, and has only repaired a tear in the fabric of reality with his HV a single time as well.You will see Orion doing the same when he was actually present with Superman. Top tiers don't outperform each other by such a margin unless its OWAW or something.
This doesn't mean such feats aren't within his ability. Try to think outside the box with more than just your 'pet' characters, please. 🙂I actually like Orion, thank you very much.
No, but I have seen him literally SING a being out of existence, of whom the entire MULTIVERSE was 'struggling against'. 🙂And when I suggested it you were the one who went apeshit at the idea.
😬
...Except that little blurb from Darkseid was not a 'formal' retcon by any stretch. Formal retcons are NEVER left simply as ambiguous comments that different readers can interpret in different ways. Ever.WTF is a formal retcon? And yes, "formal" retcons have been done in such manner. Remember Reign in Hell and the Lobo clone? It was left ambiguous to when the clone lobo replaced the original Lobo.
Formal retcons are outright stated on panel--and explicitly so. No room for reader-interpretation is left to be had. 🙂Not every writer is Jim Starlin.
😉
Anyway, I've more than proven my point here, and have no further interest in this circular discussion. You may have the last word if you must(I know you desperately crave it.) Good day. 🙂 [/B]You have mistaken me for somebody else then.
😱
