The Four Horsemen (and other notable atheists)

Originally posted by red g jacks
when i tried telling my mom i was atheist she just started crying cause she thinks i'll go to hell, so i took it back. that was when i was a teenager. these days i just sort of avoid the topic of religion around her and let her entertain the delusion that i really do believe without me ever saying so.

i also avoid the topic in school or work.. i don't want it to be held against me. in general though i don't hide it from friends, romantic partners, etc. i figure they can either accept it or else the relationship/friendship won't work out anyway. most of the time this works out fine for me. i have plenty of friends that i think are crazy and they think the same about me. doesn't seem to cause much conflict since there is a sort of mutual understanding there.

i do think it will pose some problems in finding a long term mate though. i live in the south as well so the odds are really not in my favor. not that i really care if the girl is religious... but usually they want you to be the same religion they are.

It definitely doesn't do you any favors with dating. But all kinds dwell almost anywhere. As long as you're within striking distance of a city (major city helps even more), you can find girls that will be more open to it, even in the south. It's just trickier. Finding hobbies that attract more liberal-minded people helps, but what those hobbies are varies from place to place. But I do understand that struggle, and dating is the one area that I've truly been pissed at religion. Other religious stuff, I can rail against it online, but it doesn't really bother me personally. But dating, that's been a different bird. I have my fingers crossed with my current gf - the deep religious discussion is basically the last major hurdle we have yet to jump - but it's been rocky prior to this.

Sucks about your mom. I wasn't going to pull punches with my decision. My family knows, anyone I date knows (eventually), friends know, etc. I've actually been a shoulder to lean on for a couple others going through similar things, because there aren't many people in the Midwest who can empathize with someone leaving their religion and likely angering family and friends in the process. So that's been nice, and is one of the benefits of not hiding it and projecting a confidence about it.

I kinda don't want to have to hide myself in the workplace either. My coworkers know I'm very secular, at least. I've probably not used the term atheist specifically, but they know I'm very non-religious. But, statistically, we probably should be hiding it, for fear of being passed over for advancement or discriminated against in other ways. Sad, of course, but in most workplaces you can be fired for anything and not have legal footing to sue. I know my boss well enough not to worry about that, but at the same time he's very inclined to believe the supernatural. I keep any discussion bordering on religion light-hearted and shallow. No need to test the limits of his tolerance.

Kind of sad how Atheism is almost the new gay. "Coming out" and such.

Heck, I'm sure there are people who would rather you be gay and believe in god, than atheist/secular/whathaveyou.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Kind of sad how Atheism is almost the new gay. "Coming out" and such.

Heck, I'm sure there are people who would rather you be gay and believe in god, than atheist/secular/whathaveyou.

Going back to my original response on this, LBGT have it way harder in terms of severity. Fewer mistrust/hate them, but it's unfortunately a more violent hatred.

That said, yeah, there are some similarities with "coming out." It's how I'd frame my own announcement to my family, and it was something I thought about for months before announcing.

Also, there HAS to be people who would rather you be gay and religious than straight/atheist. I can't say for certain that I know anyone who would feel that way, but that's mainly because it's not something that comes up often. Would make for an interesting sociological comparison. I'd love to see such a study funded.

I can say for certain it is more accepted to be gay than atheist in the black community around here. Mind you there is still anti gay violence and stuff but it's treated more as a "smh" compared to the hardline white american churchs thing in general among black spirituality from my experience where as being atheist or any religion outside of the black norm makes you not black and an outcast.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
I can say for certain it is more accepted to be gay than atheist in the black community around here. Mind you there is still anti gay violence and stuff but it's treated more as a "smh" compared to the hardline white american churchs thing in general among black spirituality from my experience where as being atheist or any religion outside of the black norm makes you not black and an outcast.

Interesting. Sad, obviously, but thanks for sharing.

Well it goes back to what Delph said, Spirituality and superstition became ingrained in our culture to a really heavy degree, as well as being focused more on racial issues over sexuality issues for obvious reasons. So while I wouldn't say Black America is pro-gay they were never as hard in the anti gay due to different focuses and needing every body they could get during the fight for civil rights. As such being gay is considered like that poor soul or embarrassing cousin where as rejecting mainlined spirituality is considered an actual betrayal of everyone you know.

Originally posted by Digi
Going back to my original response on this, LBGT have it way harder in terms of severity. Fewer mistrust/hate them, but it's unfortunately a more violent hatred.

That said, yeah, there are some similarities with "coming out." It's how I'd frame my own announcement to my family, and it was something I thought about for months before announcing.

Also, there HAS to be people who would rather you be gay and religious than straight/atheist. I can't say for certain that I know anyone who would feel that way, but that's mainly because it's not something that comes up often. Would make for an interesting sociological comparison. I'd love to see such a study funded.

don't worry; I don't think anyone thinks you're saying atheists have it worse than gay people. 😛

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
I can say for certain it is more accepted to be gay than atheist in the black community around here. Mind you there is still anti gay violence and stuff but it's treated more as a "smh" compared to the hardline white american churchs thing in general among black spirituality from my experience where as being atheist or any religion outside of the black norm makes you not black and an outcast.

Ouch. Sucks, man.

It's not really a specific atheism thing or even religion at all, like Delph said it's more nuanced and complicated. But it boils down to the concept of blackness which sexuality isn't considered a necessary part of, especially if the same sex lover is also black and you keep most of the same ideals as before.

Don't get me wrong anti gay sentiment is still a thing but as a whole i find it more mocking than hateful compared to white religious types.

Welp, chalk me up as happy that I'm only atheist. White, male, middle-class American otherwise. I'm a weekly church visit away from being the most privileged demographic in world history.

Originally posted by Digi
It definitely doesn't do you any favors with dating. But all kinds dwell almost anywhere. As long as you're within striking distance of a city (major city helps even more), you can find girls that will be more open to it, even in the south. It's just trickier. Finding hobbies that attract more liberal-minded people helps, but what those hobbies are varies from place to place. But I do understand that struggle, and dating is the one area that I've truly been pissed at religion. Other religious stuff, I can rail against it online, but it doesn't really bother me personally. But dating, that's been a different bird. I have my fingers crossed with my current gf - the deep religious discussion is basically the last major hurdle we have yet to jump - but it's been rocky prior to this.

Sucks about your mom. I wasn't going to pull punches with my decision. My family knows, anyone I date knows (eventually), friends know, etc. I've actually been a shoulder to lean on for a couple others going through similar things, because there aren't many people in the Midwest who can empathize with someone leaving their religion and likely angering family and friends in the process. So that's been nice, and is one of the benefits of not hiding it and projecting a confidence about it.

I kinda don't want to have to hide myself in the workplace either. My coworkers know I'm very secular, at least. I've probably not used the term atheist specifically, but they know I'm very non-religious. But, statistically, we probably should be hiding it, for fear of being passed over for advancement or discriminated against in other ways. Sad, of course, but in most workplaces you can be fired for anything and not have legal footing to sue. I know my boss well enough not to worry about that, but at the same time he's very inclined to believe the supernatural. I keep any discussion bordering on religion light-hearted and shallow. No need to test the limits of his tolerance.

Originally posted by Digi
Welp, chalk me up as happy that I'm only atheist. White, male, middle-class American otherwise. I'm a weekly church visit away from being the most privileged demographic in world history.

I'm not trying to like cry about how hard being black is or anything. Just thought you may be interested in hearing how things are in a different environment within the same country.

Originally posted by red g jacks
yea i generally use the 'not religious' banner as opposed to 'atheist' when i am dealing with school or work related activities. i am part of a club that is centered around trying to get experience in the field for its members as well as working towards certain certifications and the leader is really religious and believes all sorts of wacky shit. he's outspoken about it too and will randomly bring up his beliefs. he thinks the catholic church had lincoln assassinated and believes the earth is 6000 years old etc. i will gladly say i'm not religious but i won't actually tell him i think he's a bit out of his mind believing in shit like that.

Oh, he's been told by someone. But yeah, discretion is key in situations like that. Nothing you'd be able to say to him anyway that would do much besides create tension between the two of you, so there's no point. Just feel content knowing that it's not just atheists who would think that about them and have to hold their tongues.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
I'm not trying to like cry about how hard being black is or anything. Just thought you may be interested in hearing how things are in a different environment within the same country.

Lol, understood. I run into the same problem talking about atheism sometimes. But yes, it was enlightening.

Originally posted by Digi
Except the studies I cited use statistical analysis. Percentages, not total numbers. Your commentary here would only be valid if the studies were structured differently (and poorly).

So, baseless accusations? Cool. And you couldn't be bothered to do a Google search, but you could be bothered to insinuate that atheist charities don't exist? You're batting 1.000.

I try to own up to it when I'm not rigorous enough. It's way classier than slinging mud at your opponent.

Not much, since publicly recognized atheism is relatively new culturally and still only represents 1-2% of the population in most countries (and never more than about 5%). It has, however, increased the statistical morality of the world, as shown by empirical research.

Citation needed.

Undoubtedly. ~40% of the world's population compared to 3-5%, it's not even a contest. Again, though, you're making the mathematical mistake of forming your arguments in terms of total amounts, not statistical representation. For this to be a valid bet, Christian charities would need to outnumber atheist ones at no worse than 8/1, and probably more like 12/1.

Putting words in my mouth. Read the thread I linked, and the part about argument from historical figures. My position is far more nuanced than this strawman. It's not about religious or non-religious people doing good or bad things. It's about which actions are because of religion or irreligion, which actions would stay or disappear if the belief system were different, and whether the net affect is positive/negative for either side.

For the most part, though, good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. I actually think religion (or lack thereof) has WAY less to do with most of it than many people seem to think. But again, atheists tend to be more moral, so while it's not proof, the empirical data we do have tends to favor non-religiosity in that debate, if only slightly.

Because OF COURSE religion is beneficial for many people. If you can't see that that doesn't detract from my statements, I don't know how to help you.

That's not what I said, or even implied. Much as I loathe arguments from historical figures, I guess you want to use it here. Many of the founders also owned slaves. That's as baseless an attack on religion as American laws are an endorsement of religion, but it appears we're just trading horrible arguments now.

Words in my mouth again. Would you rather just debate with yourself?

There are hundreds of variables we cannot control for in your country comparison, all of which having nothing to do with our discussion. Semi-related, I'm a libertarian. Atheism and communism are not equivalent, and I'm shocked I have to write something so obvious.

Also, if you're going to accuse of bias, you'll have to do it for decades of studies involving hundreds of independent researchers. I've also never said "irrefutable", so there's another case of you debating a ghost. But something doesn't need to be irrefutable to be convincing and the best answer we have available to us. I think it is both.

I don't think you actually understand how proper empirical research works. You've failed at basic understanding in several ways in just this brief post.

Look you know what I really don't care. Maybe I did strawman maybe I didn't and maybe I did put words into your mouth. In all honesty I don't think I did really read your post properly or even the link. I simply judged you on how you usually behave ( and other atheists) which is to be obnoxious to anybody expressing a religious or spiritual view and prove how inferior they are.

What does seem to be apparent is you are throwing a hissy fit because you have caught me out (maybe). The irritating thing about people like you is that you never admit any guilt but are quick to jump on somebody with a different view and expose their flaws which you are doing now. The issue about the atheist charities is a prime example. I have on many occasions backed up my views with scientific evidences only to be ganged up on by rude hostile atheists. You and people like you continually behave in a condescending manner then wonder why somebody couldn't be bothered to google for atheist charities. Would it have been better if I did? Yes, but I can be forgiven for not doing it. On a quick note one of main reasons for not googling was something I watched recently on youtube concerning a question put to Richard Dawkins (no I can’t be bothered to elaborate, wouldn’t make a difference anyway). No Dawkins doesn’t represent all atheists but he is kinda the ‘prophet’ for modern atheism.

As for the other points I'm simply not going to deal with them. Not because I don't think I can but because you are a very dishonest person. I'm not going to spend 10 pages of debating with the likes of you when I have serious thing in RL to deal with, it's not worth it. I have tried before and it was a waste of time, and no you don't have to reject atheism. I have at the very least tried to make people more open minded about certain issues.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
No. Theism deals with a Deity (or Deities) that issue, in some cases, rules and commands. It's still up to the person who practices Theism to determine whether an action is moral or not, as well as to assess the comands and morality of their deity.

For an example (and thought exercise):

1. Is infanticide moral?

2. Whether a Deity commanded this act or not, would the mass killing of babies/children be immoral?

3. If the latter, by what determination do you deem this action immoral if a Diety had in fact commanded it?

4. Would you deem a Deity immoral that sanctioned/commanded such an act, or would the act be moral simply by virtue of the divine station?

5. By what determination would you make, and reconcile, that judgement (#4)?

6. Is a Deity moral because of what it says, or what it does?

7. If the latter, by what means do you judge it's actions?

Sorry I was considering replying to this and sorry I didn't respond sooner. I'm fed up and I won't be answering those questions. There was a reason why I was asking you those questions and that was to see what type of debater you are. I don't think you're going to play fair at all and I don't think this is going to go anywhere, look I might respond at a later date, right now not in the mood.

I don't think I'm an unreasonable person I was considering being atheist at one point. I just don't like dishonesty and unfairness and I think I can see where this is heading.

Originally posted by Deadline
Look you know what I really don't care. Maybe I did strawman maybe I didn't and maybe I did put words into your mouth. In all honesty I don't think I did really read your post properly or even the link. I simply judged you on how you usually behave ( and other atheists) which is to be obnoxious to anybody expressing a religious or spiritual view and prove how inferior they are.

Ad hominem. This adds nothing to our discussion. I don't think religious people are inferior, btw. You're ascribing attributes to me just as you ascribed words to me. And you're admitting that you didn't actually read my link or my posts. You haven't been debating me; you've been debating the vile bogeyman in your head that's far easier to hate.

Originally posted by Deadline
What does seem to be apparent is you are throwing a hissy fit because you have caught me out (maybe).

I'd rather talk. I'm not getting any e-boners by winning an imaginary victory on KMC.

Originally posted by Deadline
The irritating thing about people like you is that you never admit any guilt but are quick to jump on somebody with a different view and expose their flaws which you are doing now. The issue about the atheist charities is a prime example. I have on many occasions backed up my views with scientific evidences only to be ganged up on by rude hostile atheists. You and people like you continually behave in a condescending manner then wonder why somebody couldn't be bothered to google for atheist charities. Would it have been better if I did? Yes, but I can be forgiven for not doing it.

The point isn't that you didn't Google it. The point is that you're willing to rush to judgement to fulfill your preconceived biases. It's an unhealthy way to approach debate. As it is, nothing I say or do is going to convince you that I'm anything but a mustache-twirling, stereotypical atheist villain. Your preconceptions are clouding everything here.

Originally posted by Deadline
On a quick note one of main reasons for not googling was something I watched recently on youtube concerning a question put to Richard Dawkins (no I can’t be bothered to elaborate, wouldn’t make a difference anyway). No Dawkins doesn’t represent all atheists but he is kinda the ‘prophet’ for modern atheism.

Lovely pointless tangent. I hope this is cathartic for you, at least.

Originally posted by Deadline
As for the other points I'm simply not going to deal with them. Not because I don't think I can but because you are a very dishonest person. I'm not going to spend 10 pages of debating with the likes of you when I have serious thing in RL to deal with, it's not worth it. I have tried before and it was a waste of time, and no you don't have to reject atheism. I have at the very least tried to make people more open minded about certain issues.

So you have the time to rant but not attempt civil discussion? Got it. I'll wait for an actual example of willful dishonesty on my part, btw. General, vague attacks are easier to get away with. But that one seemed especially pointed, and all the more noteworthy for lacking example to back it. You're quickly sliding into bashing and insulting, and not even attempting to remain civil or on-topic.

And fyi, you haven't tried to make anyone more open to anything. All you've done in this thread is attack me. And you keep saying you're fed up with trying to talk with us, but you haven't tried to talk with us. You came in, listed a bunch of negative atheist stereotypes and called us idiots, liars, evil, negative, etc. And now you're leaving. Yes, we have lives and other things to do. But we've been trying to debate...you've been the only one wasting everyone's time.

I couldn't care less what the outcome of our debate is, but I hope you'll reconsider your tone in the future. And if you show up, all fire and brimstone, looking to destroy somebody else's points, at least have the decency to see the discussion through.

Smh...

Originally posted by Digi

I don't think religious people are inferior ...

😕

Originally posted by Digi
... it becomes more complicated when you see all religious beliefs as unreasonable. Presenting my refutations in a way that is respectful is an ongoing challenge in my religious discussions.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Digi

Your preconceptions are clouding everything here.

😕

Originally posted by Digi

BWR, have you read my atheism morality thread that I linked in response to you earlier?
God help me, I'm actually curious about your reaction.

To be fair, he said beliefs, not people. There can be a difference.

Originally posted by Digi
Agreed. But it becomes more complicated when you see all religious beliefs as unreasonable. Presenting my refutations in a way that is respectful is an ongoing challenge in my religious discussions.

This part stood out.

You do a good job of not being an "atheist-dick" with your arguments.

While I do not view atheists as "unreasonable", "dumb", or "illogical", I do view their position as being...I dunno. It lacks a certain something that I cannot name. It is not the most logical or intelligent position is what I'm trying to say. If I was not allowed to be theistic, I would be atheistic. I really don't feel that there is a huge difference for me. I would still strive to be a better person.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😕

Difference between beliefs and individuals. I can think a belief is false, or a negative force in the world, but still see the person as essentially good and reasonable. We need to be able to be honest when we don't agree with something, so my attacks on beliefs are usually very strong. But that doesn't need to override our basic humanity, even while vehemently disagreeing on something.

Now, I do call out individuals occasionally, and I've done so with you, for example. I'm not a saint. But those are individuals. I don't pretend they represent an entire demographic as Deadline seemed wont to do.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😕

It was sarcasm. For reference, I don't believe in God(s). You can safely consider any direct reference to him/her/it as sarcastic, or part of a larger point not related to my belief or lack thereof.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This part stood out.

You do a good job of not being an "atheist-dick" with your arguments.

While I do not view atheists as "unreasonable", "dumb", or "illogical", I do view their position as being...I dunno. It lacks a certain something that I cannot name. It is not the most logical or intelligent position is what I'm trying to say. If I was not allowed to be theistic, I would be atheistic. I really don't feel that there is a huge difference for me. I would still strive to be a better person.

First, thanks. In a similar vein, you're one of the few remaining theists who isn't a chore to debate with.

Second, everyone thinks their particular beliefs are the most logical, so I wouldn't really expect otherwise. I'll believe anything if there's proper evidence for it. Lacking that, atheism (lack of belief in God(s)) is the most reasonable position for me to hold. You've done the "everyone's an agnostic" spiel before, and there's some good points to it. Everyone starts with "I don't know..." but I think atheism/theism answers a different question. Do you know? No. Do you believe? That can be yes or no and still be intellectually justifiable.