DE Palpatine vs. Darth Caedus, Darth Vader ROTJ, Darth Krayt, and Exar Kun

Maul could

Not really. Maul initially only saw Sidious as a blur, and was desperately parrying and dodging to survive. Then, when Palpatine became serious, Maul couldn't even count how many directions he appeared to be coming from and was disarmed within seconds.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master's blows. Sidious's sabers were but a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul skittered away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that. Maul's saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

As for what you said about Exar Kun being advantageous over Maul because of Force Enhanced speed, precognition, and strength, that *would* be relevant if Maul didn't have far better feats in enhancement of all of the above areas, not to mention skill.

Four Exar Kun's wouldn't be able to handle a far greater incarnation of Palpatine.

Four Exar Kun's would just overwhelm Sidious with amulet blasts.

Considering that Maul was in a rage enhanced state, giving Palpatine everything he had while Sidious was holding back (not trying to kill Maul), lasting a little over 20 seconds isn't that long at all. Obviously Maul wouldn't have lasted half as long had Sidious actually took the fight seriously and not held back.

Also, being powerful doesn't mean Kun is Maul's superior in sabers. Kun's greatest powers come from his mastery of sorcery. I don't see how that means he has more raw power than Maul, who can: hurl starships, dominate Kenobi, collapse cave ceilings, fling around small armies, tear down tunnels, etc. Kun, IMO, is more powerful than Maul on account of being a sorcerer and having a wider variety of force abilities, but that doesn't translate into being a better swordsman than "one of the most skilled sith in history" (an accolade hard to top). Furthermore, I was under the impression that Kun's era was unfamiliar with his form, which would have given him an advantage against most opponents he had faced--an advantage he wouldn't have against Maul, let alone Sidious.

I've not seen anything to suggest that any of these fighters can match ROTS Sidious one on one let alone the DE version, except for maybe Caedus. NewGuy is right, and he's made a very strong case, while everyone else is just saying "nuh uh so and so is powerful."

Neph, Kun's most powerful blasts happened while on a dark side nexus. However, since we are now ignoring the concept of a nexus, then a dying Palpatine can shrug off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery that's dropped directly on his head. Fair is fair. A dying Palpatine is nearly indestructible. 😛

Also, being powerful doesn't mean Kun is Maul's superior in sabers. Kun's greatest powers come from his mastery of sorcery. I don't see how that means he has more raw power than Maul

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but that doesn't translate into being a better swordsman than "one of the most skilled sith in history" (an accolade hard to top).

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I've not seen anything to suggest that any of these fighters can match ROTS Sidious one on one let alone the DE version, except for maybe Caedus. NewGuy is right, and he's made a very strong case, while everyone else is just saying "nuh uh so and so is powerful."

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Neph, Kun's most powerful blasts happened while on a dark side nexus. However, since we are now ignoring the concept of a nexus, then a dying Palpatine can shrug off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery that's dropped directly on his head. Fair is fair. A dying Palpatine is nearly indestructible.

I got the impression that he simply disintegrated the machinery before it reached his head via TK.

Also, wanted to point this out--Exar Kun's best non-Nexus blast feat was knocking Aleema Keto unconscious with a single blast. A dying Palpatine in Empire's End used a Force Blast that tore clothes and flesh off of a Jedi.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I got the impression that he simply disintegrated the machinery before it reached his head via TK.

That's what I had thought at first too, but the Dark Empire Handbook (vol. 1, I believe) said he "shrugged off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery" or something along those lines. So I guess it did make contact with his head.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not really. Maul initially only saw Sidious as a blur, and was desperately parrying and dodging to survive. Then, when Palpatine became serious, Maul couldn't even count how many directions he appeared to be coming from and was disarmed within seconds.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master's blows. [B]Sidious's sabers were but a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul skittered away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that. Maul's saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

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^ None of that's canon. In the actual episode, Sidious's speed never increased beyond Maul's. In fact they fought at pretty much the same speed the whole time. In the end Sidious used his superior strength to disarm Maul.

That's not to say that Sidious was necessarily trying his very best or anything, and I'm also not denying that Maul was in a rage enhanced state. But the above passage is definitely rendered non-canon.

Originally posted by Q99

Maul, once it was one-on-one vs Palps, lasted for around 20 seconds. That's... *arguably* short work, but I don't think one has to be too much better to qualify as a difficult opponent (a hurdle I think Vader does indeed clear), and it's especially not short work in a multi-on-one duel context.

I really don't think Vader is superior to Maul in Sabers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ None of that's canon. In the actual episode, Sidious's speed never increased beyond Maul's. In fact they fought at pretty much the same speed the whole time. In the end Sidious used his superior strength to disarm Maul.

That's not to say that Sidious was necessarily trying his very best or anything, and I'm also not denying that Maul was in a rage enhanced state. But the above passage is definitely rendered non-canon.

And in RotS Sidious' speed was the same as the B team's, but obviously thats not an accurate representation.

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Considering Vader got elecroduced to death by a weaker version of Sidious, he might get one-shotted by FL here.

Because of Sidious's speed, Kun won't be able to track him and shoot with his amulets. Moreover, Kun never seemed to me as superior to the likes of Maul (when it comes to dueling ) and we all know what happened to Maul once Sidious got serious.

Krayt is supposedly badass and might hang out for a bit with Sidious, but Sidious outclasses him in every category.

Caedus is the only one on the team that can match Sidious in a strict duel, but not in Force powers, of course.

If the team plays it smart, they can win. It means engaging Sidious all at once, so he’s too busy before getting a saber to the neck, most probably by Caedus. Other that than if they get cocky because of the numbers, they will get slaughtered like B-team that came with Mace.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And in RotS Sidious' speed was the same as the B team's, but obviously thats not an accurate representation.

Urm yes he was shown being faster since he stabbed them before they blocked him. Are you honestly going to start taking a novel's description when it clearly contradicts what's shown on screen? Then you may as well make up your own canon rules because that's strictly against the canon rules established by Lucasfilm and KMC.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
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Darth Power

I really don't think Vader is superior to Maul in Sabers.

Well, I do.

Stigma

Moreover, Kun never seemed to me as superior to the likes of Maul (when it comes to dueling ) and we all know what happened to Maul once Sidious got serious.

That was vs one Maul, though.

If you put Sidious against 4 Mauls, and Maul's going to do *really* well.

If the team plays it smart, they can win. It means engaging Sidious all at once,

Well of course, how else would one play it? Hm, duos would be possible...

Heck, actually just fighting in succession may possibly tire him out enough for the last to win, though it would be the dumbest possible way to approach the fight.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, I do.

Nah. Maul's almost a match for Kenobi in the Sabers department. Kenobi was equal to pre-suit Vader.

Besides the Maul "clone" already proved he was the better Saber combatant to Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm yes he was shown being faster since he stabbed them before they blocked him. Are you honestly going to start taking a novel's description when it clearly contradicts what's shown on screen? Then you may as well make up your own canon rules because that's strictly against the canon rules established by Lucasfilm and KMC.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, the novel explains our personal evaluations of the film with the canonical. For example, one might have had the firm belief Anakin was by far the superior in the duel by pushing Kenobi back so far, but the novel explains why this is not true. I see you just can't handle the In lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines.

Thats where there's no contradiction you can take the novel. (But by the way you have to go to the script first which states Anakin was the one forcing Kenobi back).

So I suppose one could argue that Sidious's speed was shown from "Maul's perspective" which could still be true in the episode. Only problem there is, the novel goes on to say that Sidious's speed was such a problem and ever increasing that Maul just couldn't defend against it and was disarmed due to this amazing speed he just couldn't keep up with.

However none of that happened in the episode. Maul was only disarmed in the end Saber lock by Sidious's superior strength. But he never failed to block/evade any of Sidious's blows, and there was no indication anywhere that Sidious's speed kept increasing, or that he was even moving faster than Maul (in that final fight at least).

Heck in the novel version Maul isn't even using his Dark Saber. So yeah the novel version of the fight is completely non-canon. The final canon version shows Maul battling Sidious with equal skill and speed. It was Sidious's greater strength that was his undoing in the Saber fight. Whether Sidious was holding back or not is a different topic altogether. As is the fact that Maul was likely rage enhanced for that final battle.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah. Maul's almost a match for Kenobi in the Sabers department. Kenobi was equal to pre-suit Vader.

Yea, and post-suit Vader lost *force ability*, not fighting instinct or knowledge of blade work. He lost speed but gained strength, and even gained more experience.

Post-suit Vader surpasses Kenobi in the saber department.

Besides the Maul "clone" already proved he was the better Saber combatant to Vader.

That was a weird incident, made before Maul's power was better established, that still left Vader victorious.

Originally posted by carthage
I wonder if any of the fighters would be able to see him move.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, and post-suit Vader lost *force ability*, not fighting instinct or knowledge of blade work. He lost speed but gained strength, and even gained more experience.

Post-suit Vader surpasses Kenobi in the saber department.

You think he surpasses Kenobi in Sabers? Wow. The guy was having a difficult time against Old Ben.

As for your "gained speed but lost strength" theory, it doesn't matter because Lucas makes it kind of clear in the ANH commentary that Vader and Old Ben were not what they used to be in terms of blade work.

Originally posted by Q99
That was a weird incident, made before Maul's power was better established, that still left Vader victorious.

Winning a fight is different to being a superior fencer. TPM Kenobi won against TPM Maul, but that didn't make him Maul's superior as a swordsman at the time.

Also I see your ignoring a lot of canon evidence to suit your own belief.

Btw I'm not saying Vader is bad in Sabers at all. Being a match for someone of Maul's caliber is being above all Jedi of the PT era bar around 5 at most.

Originally posted by Arhael
I think you are confusing Sidious with Flash...

LOL

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You think he surpasses Kenobi in Sabers? Wow. The guy was having a difficult time against Old Ben. As for your "gained speed but lost strength" theory, it doesn't matter because Lucas makes it kind of clear in the ANH commentary that Vader and Old Ben were not what they used to be in terms of blade work. Winning a fight is different to being a superior fencer. TPM Kenobi won against TPM Maul, but that didn't make him Maul's superior as a swordsman at the time. Also I see your ignoring a lot of canon evidence to suit your own belief. Btw I'm not saying Vader is bad in Sabers at all. Being a match for someone of Maul's caliber is being above all Jedi of the PT era bar around 5 at most. LOL