Battlezone: Khan Noonien Singh vs. Darth Vader

I will be representing Khan from Star Trek: Into Darkness only and Carver will be repping Darth Vader from the live action films only. No animation at all.

Fight takes place on Kronos. Khan is positioned in the same place he was at the start of the battle. Darth Vader is positioned where Uhura was at the start of the battle. These characters fight in character and live action films only. Pre suit Darth Vader from Revenge of the Sith. Who proves themselves to be superior ?

This post is to show a display of skill and power.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

This is Obi-Wan vs Vader before the suit. What we know of Obi-Wan...He is an amazingly good fighter, better than any fighter Kahn went against. We have Vader stalemating him in a prolong, skill, sword match. Something that we know that Kahn is unable to do since we seen him have a prolong fight against Spark.

This clip also show the power of the force. They were able to toss each other across the room with a force push. If you fast forward the clip to 1 min and 30 sec...the force is used to control weapons as well which gives a good indication that Vader could disarm Kahn with a wave of his hand which would give him a huge advantage in this battle since we clearly see in this clip that not only does Vader holds a skill Advantage. Then, the force was also used to control the rubble they were fighting on during the end of this clip. He also holds a speed advantage as well (as shown via the speed of their sword swings and dodges).

So what we have here is Vader holding a speed and skill Advantage...Vader having an ability that shows he could disarm Kahn and it could also be used as an offense as well since we clearly see him swing Obi-Wan across the room.

Kahn doesn't have a single advantage here minus his healing factor that wouldn't save him from a light Saber swing from Vader.

Originally posted by carver9
This post is to show a display of skill and power.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

This is Obi-Wan vs Vader before the suit. What we know of Obi-Wan...He is an amazingly good fighter, better than any fighter Kahn went against. We have Vader stalemating him in a prolong, skill, sword match. Something that we know that Kahn is unable to do since we seen him have a prolong fight against Spark.

Speculation at best that Obi is better than any fighter Khan went up against. Obi is better at certain things than Spock but Spock is better than Obi in other areas as well. A light saber duel isn't really relevant here when it comes to Khan since he doesn't wield a saber. He wields dual guns.

This clip also show the power of the force. They were able to toss each other across the room with a force push. If you fast forward the clip to 1 min and 30 sec...the force is used to control weapons as well which gives a good indication that Vader could disarm Kahn with a wave of his hand which would give him a huge advantage in this battle since we clearly see in this clip that not only does Vader holds a skill Advantage. Then, the force was also used to control the rubble they were fighting on during the end of this clip. He also holds a speed advantage as well (as shown via the speed of their sword swings and dodges).
[/B]

1. 48 seconds in we see Vader kick and it does no damage whatsoever.

2. 1:08-1:19 in we see Vader choke Obi-Wan but fail to seriously injure him or even wind/fatigue him. Obi-Wan kicks himself free. This is a perfect example of someone being able to mount a defense when pressure is applied to their throat depriving them of oxygen.

3. 1:26 in we see Obi kick Anakin and him being unable to defend himself or take action until 1:32. The Jedi aren't not known for their hand to hand formidability but rather for their skills with a light saber and force abilities. I will later demonstrate how much harder Khan can kick than Obi and his strength advantages over any Jedi.

4. We see the force push you describe just drive the person back without any real damage. You also openly admit Khan has healing and resiliency advantages so this would be even less effective against him rather than Obi or Darth Vader. These two aren't affected physically at all save the inconvenience from knocking you backwards. This creates more distance between the combatants. Ranged combat greatly benefits the man with the gun as opposed to the man with the sword.

5. "It's over anakin I have the high ground."--6:26 Obi-Wan Kenobi
"You underestimate my power." 6:34-6:36--Darth Vader
6:40--Anakin jumps and gets limbs taken off by Obi-Wan Kenobi
This is a character flaw that has always plagued Anakin Skywalker even prior to his fall to the dark side. His arrogance in his abilities led to his downfall here. There are other examples as well in which this is the case.

14-19 seconds in.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg

We see Anakin clearly ignore his master's warnings of taking his opponent on with more caution due to being arrogant in his abilities. His arrogance only worsens after his fall to the dark side and his transformation into Darth Vader is complete.

So what we have here is Vader holding a speed and skill Advantage...Vader having an ability that shows he could disarm Kahn and it could also be used as an offense as well since we clearly see him swing Obi-Wan across the room.

Kahn doesn't have a single advantage here minus his healing factor that wouldn't save him from a light Saber swing from Vader. [/B]

Ok, you say it is this easy for a Jedi to disarm and crush a highly skilled combatant. This next clip shows what happens when Obi runs into an experienced, highly skilled bounty hunter more relevant to this battlezone since Khan doesn't use a laser sword.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMZdrUx8eM

Jango Fett vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi

1. 15 seconds in around 6 shots in before Jango uses his jet pack to create more distance. Jango's only has one gun that is both less powerful than Khan's laser cannon and fires slower than Khan's other laser rifle. I will later prove this claim with video evidence. Stay tuned.
2. 51 seconds in we see Jango lose his gun.
54 to 1:07 seconds in we see them fight hand to hand without their primary weapons and see how they fare against one another.
1:08 we see Obi not able to use his powers to end the fight but to retrieve his weapon due to needing it. It is painfully obvious Obi relies on his powers and doesn't have an advantage hand to hand. Obi is reacting as quickly as he can to the threat Jango poses with the skills and abilities he brings to this fight that vastly differ from a Sith or Jedi opponent. This makes it more relevant to this battlezone than a Jedi vs. a Sith. Keep in mind we see both combatants lose their weapons thus resulting in an up close encounter. Jango also lacks Khan's skilled hand to hand combat, strength/feats, and his superior weaponry.

The entire clip shows it isn't an easy victory even for a highly skilled Jedi with his powers against a highly trained/skilled opponent. Khan has several distinct advantages over Darth Vader and I will make it a point to emphasize these advantages throughout this battlezone.

Khan Noonien Singh's Advantages

1. Strength
2. Intelligence
3. Recovery/Healing/Resilience
4. Weaponry/Ranged Combat

The boolean gun was a type of large and bulky hand-held directed energy weapon used by Khan Noonien Singh, a former operative of Section 31 of Starfleet. Despite its size, the weapon could be operated with a single hand and was carried with a shoulder strap.

When activated, the boolean gun produced powerful bright streams of energy and a loud roaring noise. The energy streams could slice through and vaporize holes into anything they were targeted at, from personnel to starship hulls.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Boolean_gun

The phaser rifle A type-3 phaser (often simply referred to as a phaser rifle) was the Federation classification of the rifle variation of the standard Starfleet phaser weapon.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Type_3_phaser

5. Athleticism
6. Battle Savvy/Awareness

I wanted to post the videos afterwards and describe the details as some encompass multiple advantages in the same video.

1.) Khan introducing himself

1. 25-30 seconds --Genetically engineered to be superior.
2. 1:25--1:29--"Because I am better." Kirk says, at what? Khan replies, "Everything."
3. 1:35-1:39--"Admiral Marcus needed a warrior's mind, my mind."
4. 1:47-1:52--"He wanted to explore my savagery. Intellect alone is useless in a fight."

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LThIRkpYtI

2.) Khan crushing Marcus' skull.
33 seconds into the video. Super strength feat far beyond anything we have seen from Darth Vader.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-gkvrkvH_Q

3.) Khan attacks Starfleet.

35-47: Khan knew Starfleet protocol and to use the bombing to set the Starfleet officers up to attack at this precise moment of vulnerability and confusion.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g1mTJS0L_Hs

4.) Khan takes on Klingons and subjugates Spock, Uhura, and Kirk.

55 seconds: Khan begins his assault on the Klingons.

1:17: Khan's plasma mini cannon shows its impressive firepower capable of taking out the Klingon ship with one blast.

1:26--1:37: Kirk takes on a Klingon in hand to hand combat while we see Spock taking one out with an accurate blast from his phaser weapon.

1:39--1:41: Khan use the Boolean gun to physically take out an incoming threat and having the superhuman awareness to then switch to long ranged threats with his other weapon.

1:47--1:48: We see Khan taking two Klingons out simultaneously.

1:51: Here we see Kirk shoot down a Klingon.

2:02--2:06: The Klingon reinforcements arrive onto the scene.

2:12--2:15: Kirk's strength give him the breakaway he needs to take out the Klingon before being overwhelmed by the next two.

2:18--2:21: The damage the Boolean gun does to a humanoid body with body armor.

2:25--2:27: Spock, Uhura, and Kirk regroup after Khan destroys the Klingons seek refuge. They are in awe of Khan's fighting skill and abilities.

2:28--2:29: Khan's Boolean gun destroying another ship.

2:40--2:48: Khan eradicating more Klingons.

2:51--2:54: Khan's amazing athleticism. Look at the superhuman distance he jumps with heavy clothing on as well using amazing accuracy while wielding his plasma rifle weapon.

2:45--2:46: Khan shows off his quickly his plasma rifle can fire off successive blasts. These are much quicker than the laser blasts Jango rattled off in a longer time span against Obi Wan.
^^Very Important

2:55--3:01: Khan's incredible skill and hand to hand combat by decimating the Klingons in close quarters combat.

3:07--3:08: Khan easily shoots Spock's gun away before he can react.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K0cFLb-JmaQ

5.) Khan's melee combat and tactical awareness aboard Vengeance.

51-53:
"They know they won't be able to use their weapons here without destabilizing warpcore this giving us the advantage." Khan assesses the current situation he is in and puts himself in an advantageous position. It doesn't take a genius to know that you have an advantage in this scenario although he is brilliant. Khan will know immediately to mow down his opponent whose primary weapon is a laser sword.

1:57-2:07: We see how formidable Khan is in close quarters combat via his superhuman hand to hand combat skill.

2:08: Look at the distance the kick drives the man backwards. The kick also seems to put the man down. Comparing Khan's kicks to Obi and Anakin's is downright laughable.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uT8npGLg2g8

6.) Khan crash lands onto earth.

1:28-1:29 in--There's no way anyone could survive. Spock responds, He could.

2:02-2:05-- Khan jumps thirty meters. That equals around 98.4 feet. This is a superhuman display of athleticism.

3:55-3:59-- The necrotic host is brought back to life due to Khan's blood previously being injected into it. This means his blood is incredibly effective at healing to the point that in the right conditions Khan's blood can resurrect a life.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zMwTbrA7v1I

7.) Khan vs. Spock fight.

1. 29-31 seconds : Bear witness to Khan hurtling himself aboard the ship.

36-37 seconds: Spock also displays superhuman athleticism jumping to grab ahold of the moving platform ship.

1:07 to 1:13 seconds in Khan resists the nerve pinch that ko'd Kirk in a few seconds.

Spock nerve pinches Kirk.

44 seconds to 46 seconds is how long it takes for Spock to knock Kirk out.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HKs4bZHGcOk

1:32-1:33: Khan punches Spock backwards multiple feet in rather impressive fashion.

2:53--3:05: Khan is in the process of defeating Spock via crushing his skull.

3:08-3:20: Uhura stun blasts him 8 times showing off his impressive resiliency/healing factor after the crash landing on Earth and engaging Spock for a knock down drag out fight after these two both sprinted a considerable distance.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rWUDKY7E8ok

All of this evidence points to one inevitable outcome. Khan Noonien Singh is superhumanly accurate with his weaponry, incredibly ruthless, and has the necessary firepower to cut down Darth Vader before he closes the distance between the two combatants. There is no evidence of Darth Vader blocking anything this powerful or as wide as the bursts of energy from the Boolean gun. On top of that crucial point the phaser rifle can fire far faster successive blasts than what the Jedi are used to defending against in the Star Wars universe..

Darth Vader is prone to critical errors during combat due his own self inflated ego aka arrogance in his abilities.. Do not forget the starting distance between the two combatants is the distance between Uhura and Khan at the start of the Khan/Klingon on their homeworld called Kronos. Khan Noonien Singh's superhuman battle savvy coupled with his ruthlessness will definitely get the better of the arrogant Darth Vader.

Good arguments Quan but I don't think a lot of your arguments are concrete but let me begin...

Vader could just simply end this with a force choke as shown here. Vader force chokes someone that was light yrs away just by stating at him.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aV2DLkDPwM8

Kahn doesn't have a defense against this. He would have to raise his gun before Vader even got the chance to think about attacking and Kahn has never displayed that ability.

As you admitted in your post...Vader can deflect lasers and you have as of yet posted anything proving that the lasers from Kahn gun is faster than what has been shown in Starwars.

Or he can simply raise his hand to force choke Kahn if he wishes.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE

As shown on during this scene, Spock was able to land licks on Kahn and Spock didn't display any type of speed during this movie.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rWUDKY7E8ok

Spock was even able to dodge his punches and land a nerve strike on him...whereas he fought evenly with a skilled fighter like Obi until Obi got the high ground.

If you need to know how skill Obi is, he was able to fight and kill Darth Maul and I don't think anyone would say Spock is above or even close to Darth Maul in power.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NQxrJBNQg4A

With that said, Quan, what defense does Kahn have for the choke AND what skilled fighter has Kahn fought against that puts him on Vader level?

I would also like to add another ft to the collection. Here we have Vader lifting his hands at high speeds casually slapping laser blasts out of the air. Kahn was incapable of doing this when a girl was shooting him in the chest, etc...Not only does Vader display great speeds during this showing...He was able to disarm his opponent with a mere wave of one hand which again would leave Kahn without a weapon.

YouTube video

What advantages does Kahn hold here? From what I am seeing, he doesn't hold any. Strength ft for Vader. He effortlessly pick up the emperor with ease.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOQI-LAEzM

I can see Kahn possibly doing the same thing but Kahn has never displayed speed fast enough to lift his hand in time to knock lasers out of the air. Vader also holds a power advantage and he held his own against Obi...someone that is clearly more skilled than anyone Kahn faced. Then he can also force choke just by stating at his opponent...and as shown per my scan, he can do it at great distances without even moving a muscle. Then he can disarm Kahn with just a wave of his hand and he possess a one shot kill weapon.

Originally posted by carver9
Good arguments Quan but I don't think a lot of your arguments are concrete but let me begin...

Vader could just simply end this with a force choke as shown here. Vader force chokes someone that was light yrs away just by stating at him.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aV2DLkDPwM8

Kahn doesn't have a defense against this. He would have to raise his gun before Vader even got the chance to think about attacking and Kahn has never displayed that ability.

59 seconds-1:08: The commander has almost ten seconds to react. Khan doesn't have to shoot before the choking begins as we clearly see the untrained man raise his arms and walk around before he dies. Acting like someone being choked can't shoot their weapon while we see untrained warriors resist and perform actions is ridiculous. I will later further support this with factual information about how long the brain takes to suffer from being deprived of oxygen.

Now for some evidence of my own. Acting as if someone can't be choked and fire a gun well let's go to the footage. Kirk from the start of the video is choked 1 second on and fires against a physically superior opponent around 11 seconds in while the Romulan is choking him with a gun. As you remember from previous evidence Khan is superior in every way to Kirk to the point of hilarity.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FXy_DO6IZOA

^^Very important video

Choking factual data

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/choking/article_em.htm

Breathing is an essential part of life. When we inhale, we breathe in a mix of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other gases.

In the lungs, oxygen enters the bloodstream to travel to the rest of the body. Our bodies use oxygen as a fuel source to make energy from the food we eat. Carbon dioxide, a waste product, enters the bloodstream and travels back to the lungs.
When we exhale, we breathe out carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and oxygen.
When someone is choking with a completely blocked airway, no oxygen can enter the lungs. The brain is extremely sensitive to this lack of oxygen and begins to die within four to six minutes. It is during this time that first aid must take place. Irreversible brain death occurs in as little as 10 minutes.

http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/newsroom/news-releases/year-2013/nov/cell-release.html

Rapid Cellular Regeneration (Tissue Regeneration, Epithial Cell Regeneration, or Healing Factor) is the ability to regenerate at a superhumanly quick rate. One with this ability regenerates as an automatic response to injury, and the body usually repairs itself within less than a minute (though a little over a minute is not uncommon) depending on the severity of the damage done.

http://advancing-evolution.wikia.com/wiki/Rapid_Cellular_Regeneration

As you admitted in your post...Vader can deflect lasers and you have as of yet posted anything proving that the lasers from Kahn gun is faster than what has been shown in Starwars.

Or he can simply raise his hand to force choke Kahn if he wishes.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE

[/B]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K0cFLb-JmaQ

Proof 2 of faster phaser blasts. In contrast we see Jango Fett from 15 seconds in to 18 seconds only fire off 6 blasts in 3 seconds total. That is 3 seconds that it takes Jango to fire around the same amount of blasts the phaser rifle emitted in 1 second.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMZdrUx8eM

Vader begins choking him at 1:39 and releases him at 1:54 which means this untrained, nonwarrior can survive 15 seconds at least. Khan would have shot him dead in the first second or two.

As shown on during this scene, Spock was able to land licks on Kahn and Spock didn't display any type of speed during this movie.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rWUDKY7E8ok

Spock was even able to dodge his punches and land a nerve strike on him...whereas he fought evenly with a skilled fighter like Obi until Obi got the high ground. [/B]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMZdrUx8eM

53--54: Jango clearly catches his leg strike.

1:02-1:03: Jango headbutts him away.

So the same Obi-Wan who defeated Darth Vader clearly looked untrained and slower against Jango in hand to hand combat. Jango also had a bulkier outfit on than Obi's clothing slowing him down even further. Jango still gave just as good as he received against the Jedi knight.

In the Khan situation he just survived a crash landing on earth and sprinted before the fight started unlike the completely fresh Obi-Wan and Jango Fett. Context.

If you need to know how skill Obi is, he was able to fight and kill Darth Maul and I don't think anyone would say Spock is above or even close to Darth Maul in power.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NQxrJBNQg4A

With that said, Quan, what defense does Kahn have for the choke AND what skilled fighter has Kahn fought against that puts him on Vader level? [/B]

You ignore the context of the two fights. Here are reasons why both fights are irrelevant.

1. Khan had no weaponry against Spock. He is armed with two weapons here. We saw earlier Khan easily shoot Spock's gun away from him in a combat situation.
2. Darth Maul disarmed and had Obi-Wan at his mercy for over twenty seconds.
3. Khan is fresh for this matchup. He didn't just crash land or sprint throughout a city immediately prior to the fight.
4. Khan is too ruthless to stand over a defeated opponent and taunt him for over twenty seconds.

4:22: Darth Maul force pushes Obi-Wan both disarming and leaving him in a vulnerable position. Skill wise Obi-Wan loses this battle. You ignored the context of Obi-Wan defeating Maul. Darth Maul lost due to taunting his opponent instead of finishing him off.

4:38--4:57: Darth Maul taunts him for close to 20 seconds and you claim he defeats him via skill.

Originally posted by carver9
I would also like to add another ft to the collection. Here we have Vader lifting his hands at high speeds casually slapping laser blasts out of the air. Kahn was incapable of doing this when a girl was shooting him in the chest, etc...Not only does Vader display great speeds during this showing...He was able to disarm his opponent with a mere wave of one hand which again would leave Kahn without a weapon.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7BAaHGgdEJg

1:05--1:06: Confirmation Han Solo was set up.

Khan vaporizes humanoids he hits with the Boolean gun as well as downs Klingon patrol ships in a single shot.
2:19-2:20. Two foes with body armor vaporized with one blast.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K0cFLb-JmaQ%5B/url%5D

Khan has two weapons here. The phaser rifle fires as already proven 5-6 shots per second. Both weapons weigh more than Han Solo's pistol and the Boolean gun is carried over his shoulder.

What advantages does Kahn hold here? From what I am seeing, he doesn't hold any. Strength ft for Vader. He effortlessly pick up the emperor with ease.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOQI-LAEzM

I can see Kahn possibly doing the same thing but Kahn has never displayed speed fast enough to lift his hand in time to knock lasers out of the air. Vader also holds a power advantage and he held his own against Obi...someone that is clearly more skilled than anyone Kahn faced. Then he can also force choke just by stating at his opponent...and as shown per my scan, he can do it at great distances without even moving a muscle. Then he can disarm Kahn with just a wave of his hand and he possess a one shot kill weapon. [/B]

Khan doesn't have a suit to absorb the force of the blast. Yet we already have seen him tank 8 phaser stun blasts from Uhura. That is far more impressive than an unusable feat from Darth Vader in a suit. All Darth Vader has to do is position his hands and move them to absorb the force from the blast which is coming right at him.

Vader can force choke his opponent. This takes too much time and puts Vader in a vulnerable position against a superhuman opponent who greatly exceeds the recovery time of a human being. Kirk tired himself out punching and attacking Khan in the face. Khan wasn't even winded or affected in the slightest.

I have already proven the time frames it takes to pull off a force choke death or ko against untrained opponents. Khan can fire multiple, successive blasts in the span of 1 second from the phaser rifle alone. The Boolean gun fires blasts capable of bringing down Klingon patrol ships with one shot or vaporizing Klingons with body armor. Both weapons are more powerful than Han Solo's gun coupled with the fact Han Solo doesn't have the feats or the accuracy Khan has demonstrated under the duress of combat against multiple converging targets/ships.

Before I post my response to Quan posts, I want to point our that Quan said I can use 'ALL' of Vader fts, here.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=596786&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by carver9
Before I post my response to Quan posts, I want to point our that Quan said I can use 'ALL' of Vader fts, here.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=596786&pagenumber=2

I'm putting my post together but you've agreed that I can use 'all' of Vader fts. Don't go back on your word because I've found something.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm putting my post together but you've agreed that I can use 'all' of Vader fts. Don't go back on your word because I've found something.

People not involved with the BZ shouldn't be posting. People who have grudges against the people in the BZ should use the ignore. Spam posts will be deleted and people not involved with the BZ will be temp banned if I see fit.

Back on schedule. Like I've stated before, Kahn did well in fights but he never showed how good he would do against an experienced fighter. I already provided scenes showing Vader disarming weapons from someone hands with just a wave of his hand. So let's focus on that for a bit. Here we have Vader taking out a Lord off pure skill alone...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTa1vxmY3M

And if you need to know how skilled this Lord is, here he temporarily stalemate Yoda in a test of skill.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg

Let's get back to this scene again.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rWUDKY7E8ok

We have Kahn having the fight of his life against someone that has not displayed skills on the level of people that Anakin has fought again and defeated. Not even comparable. So Kahn would have to rely on his weapons/guns which against can get hijacked from him with just a wave of Vader hands as shown here...

http://youtu.be/uHH6YVHGh90

Which would leave Kahn open to either this a force choke (remember, that's all Vader has to do is look at you to pull this off) or Vader just outright slaughtering him with his sword.

Even if Kahn pulls off a shot, as shown per my clip, Vader is fast enough to react to it.

Also, Vader force choked someone that was light yrs away from him with just a stare. Can Kahn lift his weapons faster than Vader can think? What if Vader decides to end this quickly? What defense does Kahn have against the force choke? Hell, while choking Kahn, he could take his weapons away ( while Kahn is trying to defend against the choke) and bring the fight close quarters which again, based off skill, Kahn doesn't stand a chance.