Torn on this one. Nate/X-Man is essentially Stryfe (Cable without the limiter), and while in X-Cutioner's song Stryfe was able to 'kill' a weakened Apocalypse, and X-Man was able to weaken Apocalypse sufficiently for Magneto to finish him off in AOA (alternate reality), in Messiah War Stryfe and Bishop, together, were unable to kill Apocalypse in his rejuvenation chamber while both going all out, and when he was restored to full power he pretty much walked through Stryfe like he was Barry Horowitz and Apocalypse was Hulk Hogan. Apocalypse has also sonned Exodus, who while not being Nate, is also a high end telekinetic. I think this fight depends on whether Nate can take down 616 Apocalypse. If not, I think Apocalypse can kill both Nate and Vulcan (since Apocalypse doesn't have to rely on energy attacks or 'quantum magic' to take out Vulcan, he can simply cave his dome in like Gladiator did). I do think Nate can kill Apocalypse, though not every time, so I'd say 50:50. Given Nate and Vulcan's powers much of Sinister's offense gets neutralized so I'm not sure he'd be a prominent factor in this fight. Comes down to Nate vs. Apocalypse, and Nate has the goods to win a good portion of 10.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Torn on this one. Nate/X-Man is essentially Stryfe (Cable without the limiter), and while in X-Cutioner's song Stryfe was able to 'kill' a weakened Apocalypse, and X-Man was able to weaken Apocalypse sufficiently for Magneto to finish him off in AOA (alternate reality), in Messiah War Stryfe and Bishop, together, were unable to kill Apocalypse in his rejuvenation chamber while both going all out, and when he was restored to full power he pretty much walked through Stryfe like he was Barry Horowitz and Apocalypse was Hulk Hogan. Apocalypse has also sonned Exodus, who while not being Nate, is also a high end telekinetic. I think this fight depends on whether Nate can take down 616 Apocalypse. If not, I think Apocalypse can kill both Nate and Vulcan (since Apocalypse doesn't have to rely on energy attacks or 'quantum magic' to take out Vulcan, he can simply cave his dome in like Gladiator did). I do think Nate can kill Apocalypse, though not every time, so I'd say 50:50. Given Nate and Vulcan's powers much of Sinister's offense gets neutralized so I'm not sure he'd be a prominent factor in this fight. Comes down to Nate vs. Apocalypse, and Nate has the goods to win a good portion of 10.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Torn on this one. Nate/X-Man is essentially Stryfe (Cable without the limiter), and while in X-Cutioner's song Stryfe was able to 'kill' a weakened Apocalypse, and X-Man was able to weaken Apocalypse sufficiently for Magneto to finish him off in AOA (alternate reality), in Messiah War Stryfe and Bishop, together, were unable to kill Apocalypse in his rejuvenation chamber while both going all out, and when he was restored to full power he pretty much walked through Stryfe like he was Barry Horowitz and Apocalypse was Hulk Hogan. Apocalypse has also sonned Exodus, who while not being Nate, is also a high end telekinetic. I think this fight depends on whether Nate can take down 616 Apocalypse. If not, I think Apocalypse can kill both Nate and Vulcan (since Apocalypse doesn't have to rely on energy attacks or 'quantum magic' to take out Vulcan, he can simply cave his dome in like Gladiator did). I do think Nate can kill Apocalypse, though not every time, so I'd say 50:50. Given Nate and Vulcan's powers much of Sinister's offense gets neutralized so I'm not sure he'd be a prominent factor in this fight. Comes down to Nate vs. Apocalypse, and Nate has the goods to win a good portion of 10.
barry horowitz and hulk hogan?? 😆 nice....
and i brought up the stryfe battle before and admitted i couldn't recall all the context. how was apoc weakened again?
i think apoc vs vulcan is a bad match for vulcan though. if it came to 2 on 1 nate isn't taking both. if nate can kill sinister before apoc kills vulcan nate is in a lot of trouble. if it's vulcan and nate against apoc i'd take the team. it's a pretty close battle imo, about 50/50.
Originally posted by leonidas
barry horowitz and hulk hogan?? 😆 nice....and i brought up the stryfe battle before and admitted i couldn't recall all the context. how was apoc weakened again?
In honor of my Barry Horowitz/Hulk Hogan line, I'm gonna keep the nostalgic theme going and do some of my old school 2005-2007 style posting.
During X-Cutioner's Song Mr. Sinister was impersonating Apocalypse in order to have the Four Horsemen kidnap Jean and Cyclops and frame Apocalypse for it. He cuts a deal with Stryfe and the MLF. Sinister had Jean and Cyclops kidnapped to trade them for a canister of the Legacy Virus (which Professor X has been infected with as a proving run). Apocalypse was in one of his hibernation cycles while this was all going down and was prematurely awoken by the Dark Riders (Apocalypse's other team of henchmen) who inform him of the happenings (that he's being played and someone is impersonating him and using the Horsemen to attack the X-Men)[X-Men Vol. 2 #14]:
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men014-011_zps4aaca419.jpg
Apocalypse was in a severely weakened state an almost unable to keep his form [UXM 295] but still more than enough to take down the X-Men Blue Team, after the scene below, when he enters the X-Mansion to discover what's become of Scott and Jean (he defeats Beast, Colossus, Quicksilver, Storm, Iceman, and Archangel in 60 seconds while half dead and semi-solid):
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/UncannyX-Men295-001_zpscfccd7f6.jpg
That, however, took a lot out of Apocalypse in his incomplete state so he returns to Egypt to re-enter his Hibernation Chamber. Stryfe decides he needs to hit Apocalypse now before he has time to recover, or discover the plans he's set in motion, so he has Zero teleport him to the chamber where he takes out the Dark Riders and ambushes Apocalypse while he's even further weakend from the exertion against X-Factor. Stryfe knocks him around and eventually stabs him through the chest before teleporting him away. [X-Men Vol. 2 #15, X-Force Vol. 1 #17]:
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-018_zps395b67f6.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-021_zps80a52616.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-022_zpsdaaa6e5f.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-001_zps444713e0.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-004_zps2b3384f9.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-005_zps26182ad3.jpg
Apocalypse doesn't die, however, but since he's nearly dead and Stryfe has proven himself stronger (stronger than a premature, not full powered, semi liquid Apocalypse) the Dark Riders turn on him as well due to his weakness ("only the strong shall survive"😉, attacking him again and again nearly killing him, but he survives.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
In honor of my Barry Horowitz/Hulk Hogan line, I'm gonna keep the nostalgic theme going and do some of my old school 2005-2007 style posting.During X-Cutioner's Song Mr. Sinister was impersonating Apocalypse in order to have the Four Horsemen kidnap Jean and Cyclops and frame Apocalypse for it. He cuts a deal with Stryfe and the MLF. Sinister had Jean and Cyclops kidnapped to trade them for a canister of the Legacy Virus (which Professor X has been infected with as a proving run). Apocalypse was in one of his hibernation cycles while this was all going down and was prematurely awoken by the Dark Riders (Apocalypse's other team of henchmen) who inform him of the happenings (that he's being played and someone is impersonating him and using the Horsemen to attack the X-Men)[X-Men Vol. 2 #14]:
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men014-011_zps4aaca419.jpg
Apocalypse was in a severely weakened state an almost unable to keep his form [UXM 295] but still more than enough to take down the X-Men Blue Team, after the scene below, when he enters the X-Mansion to discover what's become of Scott and Jean (he defeats Beast, Colossus, Quicksilver, Storm, Iceman, and Archangel in 60 seconds while half dead and semi-solid):
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/UncannyX-Men295-001_zpscfccd7f6.jpg
That, however, took a lot out of Apocalypse in his incomplete state so he returns to Egypt to re-enter his Hibernation Chamber. Stryfe decides he needs to hit Apocalypse now before he has time to recover, or discover the plans he's set in motion, so he has Zero teleport him to the chamber where he takes out the Dark Riders and ambushes Apocalypse while he's even further weakend from the exertion against X-Factor. Stryfe knocks him around and eventually stabs him through the chest before teleporting him away. [X-Men Vol. 2 #15, X-Force Vol. 1 #17]:
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-018_zps395b67f6.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-021_zps80a52616.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-022_zpsdaaa6e5f.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-001_zps444713e0.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-004_zps2b3384f9.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-005_zps26182ad3.jpg
Apocalypse doesn't die, however, but since he's nearly dead and Stryfe has proven himself stronger (stronger than a premature, not full powered, semi liquid Apocalypse) the Dark Riders turn on him as well due to his weakness ("only the strong shall survive"😉, attacking him again and again nearly killing him, but he survives.
👆
been a long while since i read that arc and i knew it was convoluted. gawd i hate the x-men sometimes..... but yeah, case made. 🙂
It's part of the frustration of being an Apocalypse fan. Other than Galactus I don't think there's any other Marvel villain of his caliber who has suffered more plot device saturated losses. When he's at full power he's literally undefeated in direct combat. All of his 616 losses come from either being in an incomplete state of regeneration or a foiled plot (like The Twelve, for example, where he actually won, but since Cyclops dove into his machine and f*cked up the transformation Apocalypse became an incomplete Celestial level being and was eventually defeated because of Scott's psychic connection to Jean), not someone stepping to him at full power and defeating him. When he's at full power he pretty much walks through everything and everyone thrown at him
Originally posted by MF DELPHit's pretty much the same with Thanos and defeats with the exception of rightly losing to Odin,Tyrant and Galactus etc .
It's part of the frustration of being an Apocalypse fan. Other than Galactus I don't think there's any other Marvel villain of his caliber who has suffered more plot device saturated losses. When he's at full power he's literally undefeated in direct combat. All of his 616 losses come from either being in an incomplete state of regeneration or a foiled plot (like The Twelve, for example, where he actually won, but since Cyclops dove into his machine and f*cked up the transformation Apocalypse became an incomplete Celestial level being and was eventually defeated because of Scott's psychic connection to Jean), not someone stepping to him at full power and defeating him. When he's at full power he pretty much walks through everything and everyone thrown at him
Perhaps, but Thanos doesn't have the negative sentiments and memes directed at him on this forum like Apocalypse does. Apocalypse goes toe to toe with (and clearly has the upper hand against) the High Evolutionary, and the predominant interpretation of that fight on this forum is that it was just a low end showing for High Evolutionary and Apocalypse really isn't in his class. Apocalypse creates and casually sons the Living Monolith, a being in of himself that is clearly in the mid to high herald tier, as well as Exodus, who is one of the most powerful psionic mutants on Earth, but people would give odds to characters like Ironman over Apocalypse, and assume that Apocalypse always loses his fights (which he doesn't). Thanos doesn't get demeaned for losing via the plot devices of his stories. Apocalypse, for some odd reason, has the super-villain cliché, that being that villains always lose, held against him, and it is used to claim that he is a weak character within the canon. That's the distinction. It's part of the reason I typically don't go to bat for him in threads despite being a fan of his. There's a form of special pleading that is used to belittle Apocalypse based via the antagonist plot device that doesn't hinder characters like Magneto, Dr. Doom, Thanos, etc. The fact that they also fail in their schemes for service of the plot doesn't make them weak, but for some reason for Apocalypse it does.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Perhaps, but Thanos doesn't have the negative sentiments and memes directed at him on this forum like Apocalypse does. Apocalypse goes toe to toe with (and clearly has the upper hand against) the High Evolutionary, and the predominant interpretation of that fight on this forum is that it was just a low end showing for High Evolutionary and Apocalypse really isn't in his class. Apocalypse creates and casually sons the Living Monolith, a being in of himself that is clearly in the mid to high herald tier, as well as Exodus, who is one of the most powerful psionic mutants on Earth, but people would give odds to characters like Ironman over Apocalypse, and assume that Apocalypse always loses his fights (which he doesn't). Thanos doesn't get demeaned for losing via the plot devices of his stories. Apocalypse, for some odd reason, has the super-villain cliché, that being that villains always lose, held against him, and it is used to claim that he is a weak character within the canon. That's the distinction. It's part of the reason I typically don't go to bat for him in threads despite being a fan of his. There's a form of special pleading that is used to belittle Apocalypse based via the antagonist plot device that doesn't hinder characters like Magneto, Dr. Doom, Thanos, etc. The fact that they also fail in their schemes for service of the plot doesn't make them weak, but for some reason for Apocalypse it does.
i think at least a portion of it is due to the rather complex nature of his powerset. it's really an AWESOME powerset, but it seems to me it leads to some.....confusion at times. were his powers taken to their possible ends, he really would be a major player. he certainly has a high herald powerset imo. given his tech and smarts, there is no reason he shouldn't be high herald. but you're right about his portrayal. i've always liked him as a character. i've always loved his powerset. but it's like some writers don't know what to do with it, or don't grasp the full nature of it. he's uniquely portrayed, and in this case i don't think the portrayal is what it SHOULD be. he is a far cry from the way thanos of viewed. he is the butt of a lot of jokes, unfortunately, and that really shouldn't be the case. i hope the next x-men movie buys him a little luv and marvel takes advantage, making him the character he SHOULD be.
That's the catch:
Apocalypse isn't written as weak.
He simply loses, as villains do.
His losses are held as an example of him being weak rather than simply being that villains always lose. The fact that he's an X-Man villain is held against him as a sign of weakness (though somehow Magneto and Onslaught shake that stigma). It makes no sense.
Then there's his accomplishments. Doom or Thanos not ruling the world currently within the storyline doesn't get held against them. Everyone accepts that Doom or Thanos are still powerful and could still conquer the world/universe when they choose to. There are various storylines (and timelines) where Apocalypse conquers the world, but people will flatly claim "Apocalypse never accomplishes anything". The character suffers from a double standard around here. Yes, he's more powerful than his main opponents (the X-Men) and gets his plans foiled, but pretty much all villains are more powerful than their protagonists and lose to them for sake of the story.
Hell, that stupid Namor/ducking out of the way of a table meme was prominent for years and has actually been considered as evidence that Apocalypse is weak, but by contrast, if you pulled the Squirrel Girl card on Thanos or Doom no one would take you seriously. It's just become acceptable to downplay Apocalypse's status on KMC.
[End rant]
*edit
Also, the more I think about it, the more I think we're understating Mr. Sinister's contribution to this fight. While his blasts and telepathy might get neutered early on he's still physically superior to Vulcan and could likely just physically take him out while Apocalypse engages Nate. I actually thing Vulcan is the weak link here due to either Apocalypse or Sinister being able to take him out in the same fashion Gladiator did.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
That's the catch:Apocalypse isn't written as weak.
He simply loses, as villains do.
His losses are held as an example of him being weak rather than simply being that villains always lose. The fact that he's an X-Man villain is held against him as a sign of weakness (though somehow Magneto and Onslaught shake that stigma). It makes no sense.
Then there's his accomplishments. Doom or Thanos not ruling the world currently within the storyline doesn't get held against them. Everyone accepts that Doom or Thanos are still powerful and could still conquer the world/universe when they choose to. There are various storylines (and timelines) where Apocalypse conquers the world, but people will flatly claim "Apocalypse never accomplishes anything". The character suffers from a double standard around here. Yes, he's more powerful than his main opponents (the X-Men) and gets his plans foiled, but pretty much all villains are more powerful than their protagonists and lose to them for sake of the story.
Hell, that stupid Namor/ducking out of the way of a table meme was prominent for years and has actually been considered as evidence that Apocalypse is weak, but by contrast, if you pulled the Squirrel Girl card on Thanos or Doom no one would take you seriously. It's just become acceptable to downplay Apocalypse's status on KMC.
[End rant]
😂
👆
he's a character (one of the very few...) who is rant-worthy.
