Golgo 13
Marvel's sales slide down as well. Look at a book like FF or Fantastic Four, which gets in the top 5, then slides all the way near 50 the next month. Marvel NOW's sales are dipping as was seen in a report at CBR. The constant events and renumbering inflates sales.
Seventeen+ year high. Market share advantages over DC often in the double digits.
Marvel's sales are literally doing the opposite of sliding down.
"Regular status-quo affecting events and new launches when a new creator or book direction starts," is their publishing plan. That's not inflating sales, that's their sales, because they've proven they can keep that going for years and build upon sales using that method.
They have way more books in the middle ranks, while DC's got much much more falloff and very few mid-tier books.
Their books tend to hold sales better than DC one's too- While sales attrition is fairly inevitable (books do not gain sales nowadays without something like events, outside of super-rare exceptions), many of them have only slow attrition, while a lot of DC's are in more rapid falls.
Note also DC is trying to inflate sales with things like 3d covers and their own events, it's just that those sales are vanishing almost instantly after those moves and not bleeding in to other books.
Marvel has always been the #1 company in terms of sales. DC usually rules the top 10, but the difference from Marvel is their secondary characters always sell better. That's not a knock, DC's sales have increased to 7% in the last few months, which is good and closing the gap.
In the last few months? They were down by 16% in April. They used to get ties at least semi-regularly, even months ahead when they put out more than Marvel, but now they don't.
The gap in May was smaller than the April gap, but only because they put out significantly more books, and that's not something they can do every month, and on some months Marvel will come out with more.
They need to put out more books to not-lose-by-quite-as-much-but-still-lose.
That's bad.
I mean, that's really bad. Especially with Image and such gaining too- both the Marvel and Indy sections of the market are expanding faster than DC's.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Honestly, while I agree that DC does watch over its writing staff far too closely, I often feel that Marvel doesn't do it as much as they should.Giving writers freedom is one thing, but if there's no accountability, then it's going to make fans just as unhappy, imo.
That's the thing: Marvel's writers have more coordination and control too.
Marvel gets it's writer's together regularly and talk about where they're going story wise with events. They tell writers that they need to get from Point A to B, and give them time and room to get there properly, but you'll note in recent years things are much more coordinate, much less 'event suddenly drops down and interrupts the book!' stuff.
The writers have more freedom to express their style, but also more coordination and overall pre-thought on where to get story wise.
This is why the universe, despite having so many books of such different style, has not had problems staying cohesive and hasn't had the retcons and such DC has.
quite rightly so. this isn't the first time dc has ****ed up promising arcs by changing the writing staff (they did it preboot too, sadly), and it annoys how they can't leave shit alone sometimes.
Personally, my opinion is what DC needs is a new set of bosses.
Paul Jenkins quit the big two basically saying DC is a horrible place to work at and they bully writers., oh, and Marvel likes things too continuity focused and event linked for me.
Greg Rucka said Just about the same thing, quitting DC because they jerked him around with false promises and lies about sales of his books, and quitting Marvel because.... they decided to move Punisher to a team book.
Jim Starlin says “Anytime you deal with Dan Didio over at DC, it never works out”, referring to stories changing and evolving, even becoming totally different stories with different characters by the end.
And these are big names.
And some people at Marvel editor have actually recruited DC creators when then announce DC book cancellations or such on twitter.
I was speaking more from a continuity standpoint than a sales one.
Hey, I meant continuity too- they had some stuff undefined at the end of CoIE, but the Nu52 has had things established and then retconned on several occasions.
They've had things be one way, then another, then back again. Dick Grayson figured out Batman's identity! No, wait, he didn't! Prior titans existed! No, they didn't. Yadda yadda.
Stormwatch actually had a reboot after the big reboot. We actually have double-reboots.
CoIE was confusing, but mostly in having unknowns, not in all this back-and-forth stuff.
Originally posted by Q99
Seventeen+ year high. Market share advantages over DC often in the double digits.Marvel's sales are literally doing the opposite of sliding down.
"Regular status-quo affecting events and new launches when a new creator or book direction starts," is their publishing plan. That's not inflating sales, that's their sales, because they've proven they can keep that going for years and build upon sales using that method.
They have way more books in the middle ranks, while DC's got much much more falloff and very few mid-tier books.
Their books tend to hold sales better than DC one's too- While sales attrition is fairly inevitable (books do not gain sales nowadays without something like events, outside of super-rare exceptions), many of them have only slow attrition, while a lot of DC's are in more rapid falls.
Note also DC is trying to inflate sales with things like 3d covers and their own events, it's just that those sales are vanishing almost instantly after those moves and not bleeding in to other books.
In the last few months? They were down by 16% in April. They used to get ties at least semi-regularly, even months ahead when they put out more than Marvel, but now they don't.
The gap in May was smaller than the April gap, but only because they put out significantly more books, and that's not something they can do every month, and on some months Marvel will come out with more.
They need to put out more books to not-lose-by-quite-as-much-but-still-lose.
That's bad.
I mean, that's really bad. Especially with Image and such gaining too- both the Marvel and Indy sections of the market are expanding faster than DC's.
That's the thing: Marvel's writers have more coordination and control too.
Marvel gets it's writer's together regularly and talk about where they're going story wise with events. They tell writers that they need to get from Point A to B, and give them time and room to get there properly, but you'll note in recent years things are much more coordinate, much less 'event suddenly drops down and interrupts the book!' stuff.
The writers have more freedom to express their style, but also more coordination and overall pre-thought on where to get story wise.
This is why the universe, despite having so many books of such different style, has not had problems staying cohesive and hasn't had the retcons and such DC has.
Personally, my opinion is what DC needs is a new set of bosses.
Paul Jenkins quit the big two basically saying DC is a horrible place to work at and they bully writers., oh, and Marvel likes things too continuity focused and event linked for me.
Greg Rucka said Just about the same thing, quitting DC because they jerked him around with false promises and lies about sales of his books, and quitting Marvel because.... they decided to move Punisher to a team book.
Jim Starlin says “Anytime you deal with Dan Didio over at DC, it never works out”, referring to stories changing and evolving, even becoming totally different stories with different characters by the end.
And these are big names.
And some people at Marvel editor have actually recruited DC creators when then announce DC book cancellations or such on twitter.
Hey, I meant continuity too- they had some stuff undefined at the end of CoIE, but the Nu52 has had things established and then retconned on several occasions.
They've had things be one way, then another, then back again. Dick Grayson figured out Batman's identity! No, wait, he didn't! Prior titans existed! No, they didn't. Yadda yadda.
Stormwatch actually had a reboot after the big reboot. We actually have double-reboots.
CoIE was confusing, but mostly in having unknowns, not in all this back-and-forth stuff.
Yet, DC's SALES are up 6%. You can't get the complete picture by just looking at the market share. Marvel's Market share has been going down as well.
And you can deny it all you want, but Marvel's publishing is what is inflating sales.
Last month when DC was in full mode, they didn't lose by double digits. They will continue be close the gap in the next several months and down the road when they launch their 3rd weekly, possible 4th weekly, and their next crisis event,.
BTW, here is the estimated units for both DC and Marvel.
DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-May) 2014 - 9,676,289 estimated units.
DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-May) 2013 - 10,774,360 estimated units.And here are the figures for 1997-2012:
2013 - 28,184,085 estimated units
2012 - 29,602,125 estimated units
2011 - 26,522,201 estimated units
2010 - 23,528,000 estimated units
2009 - 24,126,336 estimated units
2008 - 25,760,378 estimated units
2007 - 29,597,217 estimated units
2006 - 30,243,575 estimated units
2005 - 26,995,698 estimated units
2004 - 23,895,322 estimated units
2003 - 22,344,120 estimated units
2002 - 20,687,488 estimated units - Dan Didio joins DC as VP of Editorial.
2001 - 21,220,332 estimated units
2000 - 23,243,656 estimated units
1999 - 25,141,760 estimated units
1998 - 22,869,060 estimated units
1997 - 26,323,968 estimated unitsAnd, out of interest, here's the Marvel numbers:
Marvel Sales - Top 300 (Jan- May) 2014 - 12,283,586 estimated units.
Marvel Sales - Top 300 (Jan- May) 2013 - 13,998,098 estimated units.And here are the figures for 1997-2012:
2013 - 31,243,347 estimated units
2012 - 30,278,745 estimated units.
2011 - 29,522,809 estimated units
2010 - 29,998,200 estimated units
2009 - 34,167,744 estimated units
2008 - 37,269,988 estimated units
2007 - 38,132,744 estimated units
2006 - 34,647,105 estimated units
2005 - 32,461,832 estimated units
2004 - 32,021,066 estimated units
2003 - 28,974,336 estimated units
2002 - 28,473,404 estimated units
2001 - 25,349,296 estimated units
2000 - 21,948,494 estimated units - Joe Quesada becomes EIC.
1999 - 24,111,104 estimated units
1998 - 27,015,555 estimated units
1997 - 32,664,192 estimated units
Things really aren't that bad. As long as sales increase.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Yet, DC's SALES are up 6%. You can't get the complete picture by just looking at the market share. Marvel's Market share has been going down as well.
Over the last 6 months? Marvels has been going up.
The entire industry has been a bit up, but proportionally Marvel and Image are growing more than DC.
DC vs Marvel, here's the pattern starting from last september, starting with Villain's Month-
DC +12% (3d Villain's Month)
DC +1%
Marvel +0.7%
Marvel +8%
Marvel +6%
Marvel +6%
Marvel +9%
Marvel +16% (Amazing Spider-man #1)
Marvel +4%
Meaning, on DC's big gigantic "everything in 3d month," they won by less than Marvel did on a month without a line-wide event, and the boost from that event lasts a mere two months. Marvel has had no big line-wide events during that period, they average 6-8% ahead without those, and managed to outdo a line wide event with a non-line-wide event by 4%.
I also want to note that 9%- That was not a weak DC month. That was a week when they had 4 major books come out and take the top 4 slots and put out more books than Marvel.
The last month there was the finale of one event (Forever Evil) and the opening of another (Future's End), as well as the first issues of Justice League United and Superman Doomed, which only got them within 4%, and that's not the kind of release schedule they can keep up solidly.
Now, let's backshift a full year. Let's see how they compared in the same months a year before:
DC +5% (the 'issue 0 month'😉
Marvel +4%
Marvel +4%
Marvel +4%
Marvel +3%
Marvel +5%
Marvel +12% (Age of Ultron/Guardians of the Galaxy #1)
Marvel +12% (Thanos Risiing/Issue 2 of the prior)
Marvel +5%
So, comparing these two blocks- An average month has increased from a 4% lead to marvel to a 6-8% lead from Marvel, which is a huge increase. Marvel has more up-months, and their up months last year were equal to DC's Villain's Months, and this year surpassed it. The latest 'weak Marvel/Strong DC' month, this May, would've been above-average for Marvel last year.
Marvel's lead is growing.
And you can deny it all you want, but Marvel's publishing is what is inflating sales.
What do you even mean by 'inflating'?
They're going up and staying up using a business model that looks sustainable...
If it's 'consistently selling more,' how is it inflated?
Last month when DC was in full mode, they didn't lose by double digits. They will continue be close the gap in the next several months and down the road when they launch their 3rd weekly, possible 4th weekly, and their next crisis event,.
That's fairly unlikely, they did so only by publishing a lot more comics. That means that per-comic they're well behind.
Last month DC was in full mode and Marvel wasn't. What happens when the reverse happens? Or both have average months? Or both have good months at the same time?
I'll again point to the 9% marvel win month.
I know you're a DC fan, but that doesn't change the market.
If that 5% is representative, then we may just be looking at a return to last year's status quo, but we may be looking at 5% Marvel advantage being a good month for DC, and only DC advantages on books where they do major line-wide things like 3d month.
^^im not denying Marvels market share is less than DCs, but when the two companies are both firing their events, dc can compete. It was pretty evident last month when dc closed the gap. Marvels share went down. I think they will continue to compete when dc pumps out their next weekly and crisis event.
And sales are up, so its not like dc is struggling.
Originally posted by Golgo13
^^im not denying Marvels market share is less than DCs, but when the two companies are both firing their events, dc can compete. It was pretty evident last month when dc closed the gap. Marvels share went down. I think they will continue to compete when dc pumps out their next weekly and crisis event.
The fact that the gap is widening on months where DC is not having event books isn't good, especially as they don't have more total events than Marvel. The monthlies will have to carry the flag so to speak- and there's been poor-selling monthlies before, especially later in their runs.
Competing in events is one thing, and DC can do that, but they need to find a way to transfer that to non-event months and comics.
And sales are up, so its not like dc is struggling.
Mind, this is quite a similar to the situation that got the Nu52 reboot rubber stamped. Corporate wasn't happy with it then, so they probably aren't now.
Here is a page with some info on longer trends
TOP 300 COMICS DOLLAR SALES
May 2014: $25.06 million
Versus 1 year ago this month: -1%
Versus 5 years ago this month: +34%
Versus 10 years ago this month: +41%
Versus 15 years ago this month: +48%
YEAR TO DATE: $121.02 million, -3% vs. 2013, +24% vs. 2009, +44% vs. 2004, +51% vs. 1999
ALL COMICS DOLLAR SALES
May 2014 versus one year ago this month: -2.01%
YEAR TO DATE: -1.13%
If total industry sales aren't up, and the others have increased in market share more... it's coming from someone.
Though on the bright side, look at those 5 and 10 year comparisons! Industry be doing well.
Again, constant relaunching and events have inflated their sales.
CBR did a.good.article on how Marvel NOW relaunches are trending down and are a result of weak sales.
Is comics sales just a small part of the story now, for both companies? Being big and best selling in other media - movies, video games, TV - seems to be just as important. Grant Morrison noted in his book Supergods about how important it is now to be launching on multiple platforms, not just be a comics series. In this aspect, Marvel seems well ahead of DC, overall. The best Marvel movies are equal to the best DC movies in quality, and they are way ahead in terms of quantity and awareness.
Originally posted by roughrider
Is comics sales just a small part of the story now, for both companies? Being big and best selling in other media - movies, video games, TV - seems to be just as important. Grant Morrison noted in his book Supergods about how important it is now to be launching on multiple platforms, not just be a comics series. In this aspect, Marvel seems well ahead of DC, overall. The best Marvel movies are equal to the best DC movies in quality, and they are way ahead in terms of quantity and awareness.
Yup. I pretty much agree. Although WB has produced the best super hero trilogy to date and seems to be changing if WB produces their new lineup.
Dc still kicks more ass in the game and tv/ animation department though.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Again, constant relaunching and events have inflated their sales.
Again, what definition of 'inflating' are you use when they consistently manage 6-8% market share advantage and when, as the article you link mentions, the relaunches don't actually have that big effects?
Also, would you not say that by this same logic, DC's gimmick covers and monthly books are inflating numbers on their side?
CBR did a.good.article on how Marvel NOW relaunches are trending down and are a result of weak sales. [/B]
Note, Marvel's mid-level books are doing better than DC's.
It's talking about how relaunches don't raise sales for long and have dimishing returns effect, which is true, but the average sale of a mid-tier marvel book still trends to noticeably higher.
"Weak sales" in this case still means better sales than DC by a good margin, just weaker compared to when the books start for real.
Remember, DC can put out 13 more comics than Marvel in a month, have half the top-10 and still have lower total sales. Think about what that means on the average sales of each book.
Originally posted by Q99
Again, what definition of 'inflating' are you use when they consistently manage 6-8% market share advantage and when, as the article you link mentions, the relaunches don't actually have that big effects?Also, would you not say that by this same logic, DC's gimmick covers and monthly books are inflating numbers on their side?
Note, Marvel's mid-level books are doing better than DC's.
It's talking about how relaunches don't raise sales for long and have dimishing returns effect, which is true, but the average sale of a mid-tier marvel book still trends to noticeably higher.
"Weak sales" in this case still means better sales than DC by a good margin, just weaker compared to when the books start for real.
Remember, DC can put out 13 more comics than Marvel in a month, have half the top-10 and still have lower total sales. Think about what that means on the average sales of each book.
Marvels mid tier books has Always done better in sales. Nothing.really new. What mattets.right now is that.dcs.sales and units are up conpared to pre flashpoint.
Read the link i posted. Relaunchs do inflate sales in the short term for marvel, but after a few issues the sales go right back down to what it was before.
Originally posted by roughrider
Is comics sales just a small part of the story now, for both companies? Being big and best selling in other media - movies, video games, TV - seems to be just as important. Grant Morrison noted in his book Supergods about how important it is now to be launching on multiple platforms, not just be a comics series. In this aspect, Marvel seems well ahead of DC, overall. The best Marvel movies are equal to the best DC movies in quality, and they are way ahead in terms of quantity and awareness.
True enough.Marvel is doing a better job of making people go to the movies than DC does.Even the upcoming Guardians Of The Galaxy movie got my friends to actually want to see the movie because of the trailers alone.Funny thing is, they're not comic fans.They're the people who like watching movies.Don't get them wrong.They know about Marvel and DC.Its just that they don't even know Guardians Of The Galaxy is actually a Marvel property.Although trailer is just one part, how good will the movie be once it comes out is another matter.Although no doubt GOTG being in the shared MU cinema will benefit other Marvel Movies since Thanos is in it.
Originally posted by Igniz
True enough.Marvel is doing a better job of making people go to the movies than DC does.Even the upcoming Guardians Of The Galaxy movie got my friends to actually want to see the movie because of the trailers alone.Funny thing is, they're not comic fans.They're the people who like watching movies.Don't get them wrong.They know about Marvel and DC.Its just that they don't even know Guardians Of The Galaxy is actually a Marvel property.Although trailer is just one part, how good will the movie be once it comes out is another matter.Although no doubt GOTG being in the shared MU cinema will benefit other Marvel Movies since Thanos is in it.
Im going to predict GOTG will be the second best MU movie. 😉
Originally posted by Golgo13
I think they will continue to compete when dc pumps out their next weekly and crisis event.And sales are up, so its not like dc is struggling.
I forgot to comment on this.All I will say, is if DC's crisis event turns out to be another reboot, I may start going Indy Comics for me.And rebooting means DC's sales have gotten stale 🙁 Best wishes to both Marvel and DC.
Originally posted by Igniz
I forgot to comment on this.All I will say, is if DC's crisis event turns out to be another reboot, I may start going Indy Comics for me.And rebooting means DC's sales have gotten stale 🙁 Best wishes to both Marvel and DC.
Comics sales in general have gotten stale. Dan Didio has even mentioned this. Look at the reports. Both TPB and floppies have decreased. HOWEVER, comics have never been more accessible. Even though it's a small percentage, people are going digital and even turning to trades more than floppies. Something which DC generally leads, I think.
I personally don't see how the two are supposed to be equally badly run- there's a lot of complaints from DC about management that aren't present at Marvel, and Marvel has an easier time coordinate their books and making critical darlings too.
Also, something else I want to emphasize about those Marvel relaunches- they aren't done just for sales, they're done to signify the end of the sale. Marvel does story arcs with complete beginnings, middles, and ends, and does so regularly. If there's still call for the title after, it gets a relaunch, if it doesn't, it gets a proper finale. Which works out good creatively either way.
Golgo 13Marvels mid tier books has Always done better in sales. Nothing.really new.
DC used to have a really solid mid-card. JSA, most Titans iterations, Booster Gold, Flash (when it wasn't an upper-card, which is admittedly pretty often), yadda yadda.
Their mid-card has weakened since the reboot.
I'd actually say their number of top-sales books has increased in size some (more Batman books for example), but not enough to balance out the thinning middle.
Originally posted by Q99
I personally don't see how the two are supposed to be equally badly run- there's a lot of complaints from DC about management that aren't present at Marvel, and Marvel has an easier time coordinate their books and making critical darlings too.Also, something else I want to emphasize about those Marvel relaunches- they aren't done just for sales, they're done to signify the end of the sale. Marvel does story arcs with complete beginnings, middles, and ends, and does so regularly. If there's still call for the title after, it gets a relaunch, if it doesn't, it gets a proper finale. Which works out good creatively either way.
DC used to have a really solid mid-card. JSA, most Titans iterations, Booster Gold, Flash (when it wasn't an upper-card, which is admittedly pretty often), yadda yadda.
Their mid-card has weakened since the reboot.
I'd actually say their number of top-sales books has increased in size some (more Batman books for example), but not enough to balance out the thinning middle.
Sorry, I was talking about their C list characters. Anyway, characters like Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, etc... still outsell characters like the Hulk and Iron Man. The sales have declined, but so has Marvel's.
And agree to disagree on the rest.
BTW, I hear many complaints about Marvel and how they run things. Increase in price, double shipping, and an endless amount of relaunches. Not to mention constant events. Most of which are average.