Originally posted by Q99
Yes, let us not forget, Dooku on his own was able to hold off Yoda pretty well. And Luke... well, he does tend to overpower even strong foes when he gets serious, but numbers certainly would make things much harder. He's not invincible, just strong.Two strong sith lords could definitely handle Yoda. And two vs Luke would definitely not be a fight Luke looks forward to, there'd be real danger for him there.
Though, 2 on 2 there's really no question. Luke can beat just about anyone in an even matchup.
Luke does not wins every fight without circumstances often favoring him.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes it can and has, Luke is the most powerful Force User 'in the mythos', Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever.Search your 'ground realities' you know it to be true.
Sidious was officially touted as 'most powerful practitioner of the dark side' and Sith Lord in different sources but prior to introduction of The Ones and Emperor Vitiate to the mythos, therefore, Sidious is now a "candidate" instead of "confirmed."
I am well aware of the "ground realities."
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
"One of the," miss.
Luke is ranked higher because he's simply done more. And Sidious was actually called the "greatest and most powerful" Sith Lord of all time in the same continuity that Vitiate exists in, knowing full well who Vitiate was.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Feats>accolades in game>encyclopedic medium.
Official information have same value irrespective of mediums. However, encyclopedic mediums are best sources for consultation because they cover enormous chunk of the lore and assessments in them are enlightening accordingly.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Luke is ranked higher because he's simply done more. And Sidious was actually called the "greatest and most powerful" Sith Lord of all time in the same continuity that Vitiate exists in.
Continuity argument is misplaced, release dates and coverage of sources matter.
Sidious have been touted as "the most powerful practitioner of dark side" as well, in a 2005 source, willing to believe that he is superior to Force-users such as Son and Abeloth?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Based on what?Official information have same value irrespective of mediums. However, encyclopedic mediums are best sources for consultation because they cover enormous chunk of the lore and assessments in them are enlightening accordingly.
Luke is ranked the best in FANON.
Continuity argument is misplaced, release dates and coverage of sources matter.
Sidious have been touted as the most powerful practitioner of dark side as well, in a 2005 source, willing to believe that he is superior to The Son?
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
If you are seriously trying to argue that actual showings of power are somehow lower on the ladder than an encyclopedia, I have nothing more to say to you.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not the point. No ones arguing that Luke is the most powerful Force user of all time here.
Here is an example:
Originally posted by AncientPower
Luke is the most powerful Force User 'in the mythos'
Arguing for the sake of argument seems to be your new specialty. Always pay proper attention to what others post.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And so does showings of power, because feats actually matter. Your release date doesn't change the fact that you still need to actually be shown above someone to be more powerful than them. If you come in with the assumption that anyone, in this case Luke or Vitiate, is going to be the most powerful, you are wasting time and starting a reasoning based on bias.Nope, but the Son has shown himself to be above Sidious, so I'm not sure why you brought that up. You seem to not be getting the point that showings are greater than accolades.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And Sidious was actually called the "greatest and most powerful" Sith Lord of all time in the same continuity that Vitiate exists in, knowing full well who Vitiate was.
You used an accolade-based argument to support your position and you are lecturing me about the importance of feats?
Well Emperor Vitiate;
1. Did actually solo a Dark Council
2. Successfully controlled the Dread Masters and millions of other Sith
3. Is more battle-tested then Darth Sidious and Son
4. Survived and controlled a ritual that obliterated every living being in its coverage.
5. Influenced the environment of a gigantic world with his powers/dark side practices
So let us not assume that Emperor Vitiate is lacking in accomplishments/feats.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did you just assume that feats are not considered for evaluation in an encyclopedic medium? You are utterly wrong.
Oh really?Here is an example:
Arguing for the sake of argument seems to be your new specialty. Always pay proper attention to what others post.
This is your statement:You used an accolade-based argument to support your position and you are lecturing me about the importance of feats?
Well Emperor Vitiate;1. Did actually solo a Dark Council
2. Successfully controlled the Dread Masters and millions of other Sith
3. Defeated more opponents in battles then any known dark side practitioner in history
4. Influenced the environment of a gigantic world with his powers/dark side practices
So let us not assume that Emperor Vitiate is lacking in accomplishments/feats.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's not the point at all. The point is, without feats to back up the claim, the claim means nothing. Encyclopedias use more than just feats to make up accolades. They use hearsay, personal opinion, and facts to make claims. To assume that an encyclopedia is the all determining medium to make a presumption is stupid.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm responding to your statement with Nalaniel which I'm absolutely sure you knew.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No ones arguing that Luke is the most powerful Force user of all time here.
---
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm responding to your accolade with another accolade. I never said that accolades couldn't be used, as I have made a habit of using them in arguments myself. I said that feats are superior evidence to accolades. Putting words in other people's mouths has become your habit, though it certainly isn't a new one.
ANALOGY: Emperor Vitiate is officially stated to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. This revelation suggests that Emperor Vitiate might have greatest knowledge and command of dark arts in history of the mythos. With this accolade, authors convey an important aspect of depth of command of the dark side of Emperor Vitiate instead of depicting him performing countless different feats/actions to establish his credibility.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He didn't fight them. He surprised them with prep. It's not a fight.
It was a battle, Emperor Vitiate did not fight this Sith Strike Team in strictly conventional manner but apparently used sorcery to tackle it or some kind of mysterious ability. Nonetheless, this is a valid measure of Emperor's power.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He doesn't personally go out and control millions. He uses a system of fear and military knowledge. And considering that a lone Jedi and few special forces soldiers went and captured the Dread Masters, I'm doubting that they are the juggernauts you taught them as being.
Capture of Dread Masters is a largely unknown event, it is not clear how they were captured. However, no one could control Dread Masters or make them subservient. Republic attempted to break them but utterly failed. Empire also could not control the Dread Masters or make them subservient.
As apparent from an operation, each Dread Master is a force to be reckoned with and is considerably above norm in mastery of the dark side. In addition, these monsters can inflict unprecedented destruction on surroundings with support from each other. It is really an incredible achievement and display of power that Emperor Vitiate made these monsters subservient to him.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Source?
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Sorcery allows one to do what they can't do normally. While it is impressive, I'm not going to use the Emperor's rituals as proof of his power.
Emperor Vitiate's performance in the Nathema ritual is testament to all of his capabilities and talents including his power. It cannot be ignored.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who assumed that? I said Luke's were greater.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Novels tend to rely upon hearsay, opinions and facts to hype characters. In comparison, Encyclopedic mediums tend to be decisive and neutral.
To refresh your memory:
---
Emperor Vitiate isn't lacking in feats in comparison to other greats, he have his share of unique accomplishments. Accolades are not assigned without substance, they represent possibilities and big picture of capability of an individual.ANALOGY: Emperor Vitiate is officially stated to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. This revelation suggests that Emperor Vitiate might have greatest knowledge and command of dark arts in history of the mythos. With this accolade, authors convey an important aspect of depth of command of the dark side of Emperor Vitiate instead of depicting him performing countless different feats/actions to prove his worth.
He didn't fight them? (WTF)
It was a battle, Emperor Vitiate did not fight this Sith Strike Team in strictly conventional manner but apparently used sorcery to tackle it. Nonetheless, this is a valid measure of Emperor's power.
Emperor's power made such magnitude of subservience possible. Systems of fear and military knowledge are not sufficient to stop potential betrayals/challenges from others in a Sith Empire. In-fact, Emperor Vitiate could be directly challenged for supremacy in accordance with Kaggath rules of his Empire.
Capture of Dread Masters is a largely unknown event, it is not clear how they were captured. However, no one could control Dread Masters or make them subservient. Republic attempted to break them but utterly failed. Empire also could not control the Dread Masters or make them subservient.
As apparent from an operation, each Dread Master is a force to be reckoned with and packs lot of talents. In addition, these monsters can inflict unprecedented destruction on surroundings with support from each other. It is really an achievement that Emperor Vitiate made these monsters subservient to him.
I revised my earlier statement. Nonetheless, he is more battle-tested then Darth Sidious and Son put together.
Sorcery represents purest expression of the dark side and is a true measure of an individual's innate talent in use of dark arts. Sorcery related actions have same requirements that conventional applications have; power; understanding of the Force; and mindset.
Emperor Vitiate's performance in the Nathema ritual is testament to all of his capabilities and talents including his power. It cannot be ignored.
Your belief is subjective.