Exar Kun and Obi Wan ROTS vs. Reborn Krayt and Kyle Katarn (sabers only)

Kun was not a failure by ANY measure, he just took the consular's form beyond the levels of moderation, beyond the needs of consulars relying on Force powers to get them by and mastered it entirely.

He became the absolute jack of all trades by doing so, the average Niman user, depends on it to get them by long enough to prep Force abilities.

Exar Kun used it solely for lightsaber combat and developed it to it's highest extent, removing any notions of balance or moderation and surpassing those limits, this is a generally accepted feat of Kun's.

Calling Kun a failure in Niman because he didn't chain Force attacks is like saying Windu failed at developing Vaapad because he didn't go rage mode every time.

Ant was saying he was a failure in chaining force based attacks into his fighting, which is a core aspect of Niman as a style. I agree for the most part. Kun was a master swordsman, but if he combined his aggression with force attacks like Malgus he'd be even more potent.

But Kun did use the Force, he used Rage, more than once, he just didn't actively use his powers midfight, a more efficient way of keeping up the pressure.

Niman is what Force prowess focused combatants used when they were building up attacks, but they were also fairly pathetic at the Form in the first place. Kun mastered Niman instead of relying on the Force to get him by in fights.

I find it far more efficient to be able to just outright defeat your opponent in a duel with your own skill, instead of having no choice but to fall back on the Force every time you got in trouble.

Kun was both a master swordsman and a master of the Force.

The real fight here is between the Sith, and I think Krayt has the edge just because he has better feats.

Originally posted by AncientPower
How can Krayt, a primary Niman user, be better than the best Niman practitioner? Kun was also an exceptional Jar'kai user, evidently a master of the saberstaff as well.

Well, Krayt has a lot more raw experience. Kun also tended to win by simply outpowered his foes- he didn't get through Vodo's guard, after all, he simply pounded until the guard broke.

Krayt being very physically powerful himself, that brute force approach is unlikely to work.

Whilst Krayt gets the highly skilled practitioner statement, it clearly does not compare.

Bah, Krayt was the best duelist of his era by feats, clearly, and gets nods of respect for his power from Luke and Jacen. Even as Hett, he was considered a very dangerous duelist to face by Kenobi.

And there is simply the raw experience thing- Kun was extremely talented, but he was around for just a few years, he wasn't that old.

Kun invented the saberstaff style. It was new and unconventional then, with people not really having experience fighting it. Krayt's fought against and taught styles like that for several times Kun's lifetime. Krayt's knowledge and experience with sabers of all forms is greater.

A duel between them should be epically awesome, but when both people are really good, and strong, at the end of the day I expect the more experienced one, and the one who relies a bit less on being unconventional to his foes/stronger than his foes to win.

Kun didn't invent the saberstaff he gained that knowledge via a holocron and reintroduced the weapon to lightsaber combat.

The argument that his opponents were defeated through fighting against the norm with his own weapon makes no sense when Vodo himself used a staff, it was just made of wood.

Krayt had experience sure, but when Kun is calling Luke's own dueling skills 'quaint' we have an idea of just how much he himself knew about the art.

Kun don't forget fought two of the best master swordsman of the era, both Form V practitioners and held his own in a power duel, even killing the more experienced of the two.

Kun was clearly a jack of all trades combatant and labeling him with one of any style of combat isn't taking enough into account in my opinion.

Unfortunately for Kun his lack of active combat and his active rule as a Dark Lord goes against him here but wait.. isn't that the whole point of Kun?

It goes to show that he is the only one who genuinely mastered the Niman form, clearly adapted it to his own preferences and has kept the poster boy tag even after 4,000 years of other duelists.

Simply put Kun was a natural as a swordsman, the fact he mastered multiple uses of the lightsaber in the most adaptable form, is much more impressive when you realize he was practically self taught.

Kun didn't invent the saberstaff he gained that knowledge via a holocron and reintroduced the weapon to lightsaber combat.

Still, his opponents didn't know it and needed to adapt to what was, at the time, an unconventional style. That's often been noted as one of his advantage.

But in Krayt's time, it's a very conventional weapon where later masters have added their own techniques and flourishes and such. Rather than Kun being the only saberstaff wielder around, Krayt's from an era where both Jedi and Sith use it.

Krayt had experience sure, but when Kun is calling Luke's own dueling skills 'quaint' we have an idea of just how much he himself knew about the art.

I'll note this was relatively early Luke who was still growing, and frankly, I'd say Kun was just fronting. I don't see him doing any better against Sidious.

Kun don't forget fought two of the best master swordsman of the era, both Form V practitioners and held his own in a power duel, even killing the more experienced of the two.

Krayt fought against the two next best people from his era. He killed both.

And note that Kun didn't so much outskill Vodo, as pound him until his staff broke.

It goes to show that he is the only one who genuinely mastered the Niman form, clearly adapted it to his own preferences and has kept the poster boy tag even after 4,000 years of other duelists.

I'm pretty sure a number of others have mastered Niman. Sidious mastered all the forms iirc, and taught Maul all of them as well.

And, well, Krayt. Krayt's genuinely mastered it and that's who he's facing, so not much of an advantage there ^^

Simply put Kun was a natural as a swordsman, the fact he mastered multiple uses of the lightsaber in the most adaptable form, is much more impressive when you realize he was practically self taught.

... he learned under Vodo, known to be the greatest lightsaber teacher of the era, for years. He's not like Nomi who largely started on her own.

And, frankly, mastering multiple forms is pretty darn common in the higher tiers. Nor is it necessary to be high tier- Dooku and Kenobi were extremely skilled while focusing on one form.

Kun is indeed quite a natural as a saber user, I'm just not seeing how that's supposed to make him better, especially when his foe is both quite talented and way more experienced.

Originally posted by carthage
Ant was saying he was a failure in chaining force based attacks into his fighting, which is a core aspect of Niman as a style. I agree for the most part. Kun was a master swordsman, but if he combined his aggression with force attacks like Malgus he'd be even more potent.

Krayt defeats Kun through superior speed, skill, and his use of Jar Kai sabers would render Kun's adjustable double blades moot. Kun doesn't have the same strength advantage he had againt Vodo, and Krayt while similarly prone to dark rage is more controlled in his approach. I think Kun with Jar Kai sabers would be an even match for Krayt, but they aren't his go-to weapon.

Krayt is more skilled in Jar Kai, faster, and just has better feats. He would take Kun in sabers for a majority

I disagree, Kun simply has greater evidence of superior mastery over their chosen form.

Kun wins, 7/10.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I disagree, Kun simply has greater evidence of superior mastery over their chosen form.

Krayt has more dominant dueling feats. He took out 4 masters while surrounded with ease. He overpowered Cade Skywalker in claws of the dragon, then in their final duel, he got past Cade's job with a grab, he didn't simply batter him down.

Kun's good but he has more peers and against strong foes he did rely overly much on a brute force edge to break their weapons, which if anything is an area he has at a disadvantage vs Krayt.

I give this to team 1 largely because I think Katarn would fall to Kenobi

On a one v one basis Kun would lose to Krayt, but I think he can hold his own long enough for Kenobi to take out Katarn.

Open to arguments for team two though