Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She been training for 10 years now, she should have enough experience not to get utterly trashed in both her fights.
Even Revan, only half-way through his run and brain-damaged, does better then she does. Embarrassing dude, embarrassing.
Right, except one was against a berserk Darth motherfvcking Bane, one of the top 10 strongest Sith of all time and the other was against an incredibly skilled swordsman who was larger and stronger than even Bane was who was empowered by Battle Meditation. Frankly that she was able to still put up a decent fight against both (particularly Bane imo) while still half-trained is highly impressive. Revan half-way through his run would get utterly stomped by both. 😬
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lol wut? This is so wrong, I'm astonished.Mandalore the Ultimate was "no match" for his skill with a blade.
[b]"In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
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He "quickly" beat one of the greatest Echani generals in history, Yusanis.
"One of the most feared of Echani warriors active in the galaxy during the decades leading up to the Jedi Civil War, Yusanis was a decorated solider and one of the greatest heroes of the Mandalorian Wars. Later, when Yusanis discovered that an Echani Senator had been killed by Darth Revan, he set out to confront the Sith Lord and bring him to justice. Despite his skills, Yusanis was quickly killed by Revan."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
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He beat Gorse Bendak, a famous Mandalorian who never lost in over a 100 duels.
"All hail the Mysterious Stranger [Revan], the greatest duelist to ever grace the rings of Taris!"
―Taris dueling announcer (Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic)
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He slayed two large Terentatek, which normally take an entire squad of Jedi just to kill one.
"Terentateks are undoubtedly one of the most vicious of all creatures steeped in the dark side, and they are doubly dangerous because of their unnatural resistance to Force powers."
―Terentatek Codex Entry (Star Wars The Old Republic)
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So yeah, Revan's combat feats well outstrip Darth Zannahs. This is not even mentioning his slaughter of both the Sith Academy on Korriban, and 100s of Dark Jedi on the Star Forge.[/b]
Did you miss the part where I said "lightsaber fight"? None of what you just said has been confirmed to have been done with Revan's lightsaber skill.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"At this point?" Why are you implying her style is invincible as of DoE, because that is clearly not true. 😬
Of course. But as of DoE I do consider her defense to be pretty close. Considering she could defend against Bane, who I rate extremely highly as a swordsman, with only being slowly pushed back I don't think there are many who can penetrate her defense.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She doesn't need to draw on a nexus for it to effect her. Jedi don't draw on nexus', yet there abilities are still hampered.
Except darkside on the planet was sealed away. In DoE Zannah specifically says it's been "buried for centuries".
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The fact she didn't sense Darth Bane's attack until it hit her was pathetic, especially since her sense abilities are amplified by the lake.
It's not said that she didn't sense the attack. That she reacted by instinct doesn't imply that. That's typically how a Jedi's danger sense is depicted as, something that triggers the sense and is instinctively reacted to.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In fact, I don't think she has ever put up a Force Barrier that wasn't through sheer instinct. She is clocking in at a Kenobi-level reaction time:[b]"Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his longs. He reached out for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden.
"
--Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Junior NovelizationThe same situation that happened to Zannah also happened to Kenobi. A sudden Force attack was made, and neither had the proper reaction time to counter it until it was too late
The difference is Kenobi was able to at least try to reach out with the Force. Zannah merely lived thanks to utter instinct, despite being on a nexus.
So yeah, precognition comparable to Obi-Wan is not something to be in awe about. The guy has got toyed around by people more times then I can even count.[/b]
Lol, you say that as if Kenobi didn't have superior speed and reaction feats to Revan. Since he, you know, actually has some! 😆
And your comparison is pathetic. Obi-Wan was lifted off his feet for something like a full second and held, of course he could react to that. Zannah was hit by a sudden Force Push in the middle of talking. One is an extended grab and the other is a sudden strike. And unlike Obi-Wan, Zannah actually did react to the attack before being hit with it and blocked it partially. If Obi-Wan truly only reacted after being hit then Zannahs feat is superior.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan was a dominating swordsman against Yusanis (and Revan has the speed necessary):[b]"One of the most feared of Echani warriors active in the galaxy during the decades leading up to the Jedi Civil War, Yusanis was a decorated solider and one of the greatest heroes of the Mandalorian Wars. Later, when Yusanis discovered that an Echani Senator had been killed by Darth Revan, he set out to confront the Sith Lord and bring him to justice. Despite his skills, Yusanis was quickly killed by Revan."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia"Yusanis was the most famous of Echani warriors, fighting against oppression and villainy until encountering Darth Revan. Discovering that Revan had killed an Echani senator, Yusanis attempted to tell authorities but fell to the powers of the Sith Lord, despite his own impressive abilities and the cortosis weave inherent in all Echani vibroblades."
―Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic"...if Father had been faster... if only Father had been faster..."
―The Handmaiden (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
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Chris Avellone also shows that Revan was a dominating opponent in the field of battle:"There weren't many people able to face Revan across a battlefield and survive the encounter."
―Chris Avellone (KOTOR Designer)[/b]
Nope. Nothing in here was canonically done with his lightsaber. A simple interpretation for Brianna's words is "If only Father had been faster.... he wouldn't have gotten his face melted off by lightning." And Avellone could easily mean that few could face him because of his Force powers. As I recall, he did say that's what Revan specialised in.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Zannah couldn't release sorcery against Xaj until she had a moment to spare. She can't do it in the middle of battle.
Against Darth Bane it required time for her to gather her energies, she couldn't do it instantly against him either.
Well obviously she can't do it while wielding her 2 meter long lightsaber in both hands, but as seen in her fights with Bane, she is easily able to disengage and put distance between her and her opponent rather easily. She couldn't do that against Sarro though since she'd backed into a corner to prevent herself from being flanked.
And no, Zannah didn't need to do jack shit. She says she'd have preferred to do that to annhilate Bane with irresistable power and she was certainly planning on doing it, but she had to rush things after Bane had stomped her. She used her spells against Set Harth just fine without any preperation and states that she can perform such attacks at a thought.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Snip
So because Revan... jumped he's using Ataru? I guess Bane was as well when he jumped at Zannah then. Obviously you can't jump when using a different form, that's just cheating. Aaand because Revan kicks clearly he's using... whatever that is? Since kicking is specific to a single form and no other form lets you kick no really. Because he's using a Force Push, well obviously that must be Niman. And clearly attacking from below CAN ONLY BE, erm, that form. Wow, you've convinced me. So unpredictable. His ability to jump, kick, use a Force push and swing his lightsaber upwards truly will push Zannah's defense well beyond it's breaking point. My eyes have been opened. Thank you.
This is reaching even for you. 😬
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[Continued from above]She had to exert energy due to the speed and the randomness of the attack.
She had her blade set up in an area to defend the attack, but the blade changed rapidly (something she didn't anticipate before hand), making her have to scramble in order to survive.[b]"He came at her again, his blade changing directions so quickly in midstroke that it seemed to bend and curve. Zannah repelled the assault with a furious defensive flurry, breathing hard."
--Star Was Darth Bane: Rule of Two[/b]
Nope. It never states jack shit about the attack being unpredictable or random or anything like that. It is implying speed, yes, and that she had to work to repel the attack, but you're completely making shit up about the attack being ZOMG unpredictable!
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I feel you have misread the fight then. Read it again.[b]"She was being driven back in a slow retreat, and she realized he was herding her toward the shuttles, hoping to pin her against the metal hull with no place to go. Zannah was content to play along, taking quick, careful steps backward over the soft, sandy terrain as she began to gather her power.
--Star Wars Darth Bane: Dynasty of EvilZannah decides to play along once she realizes she was being pushed backwards to the shuttle. She was already being driven into a slow retreat.
Darth Zannah merely tried to take advantage of her losing, she did not have the advantage all along obviously.[/b]
Ok, conceded but this doesn't mean anything like that Bane was overpowering her defense. He was simply changing the angles he was attacking from at random intervals causing her to have to reposition her wall of defense. She was still blocking him fine and shows absolutely no strain in doing so. All Bane was achieving was pushing her back, not pressing her guard.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Bad analogy. Anakin wasn't pushing Kenobi into a "slow retreat." Darth Bane was.
Yeah, Kenobi was flat out running backwards at points. There was nothing slow about his retreat. 😬
As I said, Zannah wasn't being overpowered at all.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He reacted consciously in the Imperial Guard battle, and also has precognition necessary to predict the course of entire wars. Something like that, since it's so long-term, cannot be done through instinct.
Uh, I don't think he was reacting consciously actually. No moreso than Bane or Zannah do. Just because he used a feint doesn't mean shit.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Her style was meant to prolong combat, exhausting her opponents as they tried to penetrate her defenses. Revan has among the greatest endurance feats in the entire mythos, fighting through hordes of Dark Jedi for an "hour." He then fights Bastila Shan, an army of infinite droids, and finally Darth Malak. He can be in combat with Darth Zannah for, like I just said, over an "hour" without backing down. Her style is ineffective against someone like Revan. Just look at this quote:[b]"Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting…particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down."
--Star Wars Darth Bane: Dynasty of EvilDarth Zannah was wearing Set Harth down in less then a minute really. She is not doing that for Revan.[/b]
I don't recall anything indicating Revan was fighting non-stop for an hour. He obviously had moments to catch his breath and rejuvenate himself. And fighting hordes of fodder isn't the same as trying to break through Zannah's defense.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's unpredictability in combat will suit perfectly against Darth Zannah's lack of great precognition, further hindering her style. A well placed Force attack by Revan, which Darth Zannah won't be able to counter unless via instinct (she could only counter Set Harth's not via instinct), would also be able to disrupt the flow of her rhythm and movement, allowing Revan to take the advantage. She will have to resort to other powers to overcome Revan, because merely spinning her blade around is not helping her situation. Revan is winning this fight rather easily.
You haven't established jack shit about Revan being unpredictable. His incredible ability to jump and kick notwithstanding. Nothing about his lightsaber ability implies they'll any amount of effort for Zannah to defend against. And the thought of Revan getting the best of her simply via his incredible ability to use the Force. is laughable. Bane didn't even try that shit, Revan is getting nowhere against a duelist as cautious as Zannah.
And saying Revan is winning easily is frankly idiotic.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, you continue to say Revan lacks speed, yet his speed is greater then that of Zannah's. 😕 A Force-user's speed is dictated by there command of the Force. I doubt many Force-users in the mythos can run at the speed of Usain Bolt without Force-augmentation (especially Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, and Bane). Revan's greater command of the Force allows him to augment his speed beyond that of Zannah's, being able to contend on near-equal grounds with the Sith Emperor himself.[b]"Lanoree used the Force to increase her speed, willing her muscles to stretch and contract faster, pumping her arms, pushing blood through their veins."
--Star War: Dawn of the Jedi: Into the VoidPS: I won't be able to respond for a couple days anyway, so no rush. [/B]
This is some of the biggest bullshit you've ever given me. So instead of having actual feats Revan is faster..... because he's just better ok!
Revan contending with Vitiate (who has no speed feats either! 😆 ) proves nothing. Revan's incredible command of the Force (which is bs since Zannah has all the force knowledge Revan does and more) proves nothing. Revan having no feats to his name.... proves nothing. Zannah is faster because she kept up and easily blocked attacks from a person with actual good speed feats. Deal with it.
I see a touched a nerve there, didn't I? Good. Everything I said in the above response is true, and I have been saying now since the creation of my Revan Respect Thread.
Many of my statements however are supported by Drew Karsphyn, someone who you despise because you love to ignore various aspects of Star Wars debating, like nexus'. 😄
🙄 For being someone who has graduated college, I would expect near-perfect grammar. In nearly every-other page you have debated in, I can assure you I can find mistakes within it. 🙂
Sometimes there are blatant mistakes such as simply forgetting a word or adding the word the same time, though I normally don't point it out because you are too much of a "high-class debater."
I rather be a lil' schoolboy then one who sits around his home all day eating Cheetos and playing Xcom. At least then I'm doing something with my life, rather then pressing numerous buttons on a controller.