Well, it was actually simply a case of magnetising his web shooters to hold an electric charge, so that Electro's blasts didn't fry them. Not really that much of an upgrade.
It's really hard to gauge with Garfield Spidey as to what is a durability feat and what is a healing feat. Because we know he has enhanced healing, it being a main plot point between him and Harry in ASM2. The fact that he is covered from head to toe in his costume doesn't help either.
I don't think anyone is overselling Loki's durability though. Fact is, the only person shown to genuinely damage him through a pure beatdown is the Hulk. I just don't see Spidey being able to replicate that feat to drop Loki for a 10 count. But, like I said earlier, Spiderman is WAY faster, based on feats, so don't see Loki tagging him.
Originally posted by Inhuman
Well Loki has fast reaction feats like catching the arrow, his durability , some super strength, telekinesis, his illusions, mind control, and his throwing daggers (maybe other powers and feats im forgetting)
True, but catching an arrow is still not on the same level as dodging bullets at point blank range.
As for his other powers... Spiderman is stronger, based on feats. Loki's tk has never been used in battle, so we can't really make any claims as to how useful it might actually be. His mind control only works when he touches a person in the chest with his spear. And seeing as Spiderman is a bullet dodger, I highly doubt Loki will tag him with his daggers. His illusions might be able to cause some confusion, but Peter's spider sense should warn him of the real danger, if the actual Loki tries to attack.
Basically, Spiderman holds all the advantages other than durability, and he is no slouch in that department either. I call stalemate because I can't see Loki tagging Pete enough to put him down, but I just can't see Pete dishing out a Hulk level thrashing on Loki either.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
His mind control only works when he touches a person in the chest with his spear.
He mind controls selvig(sp) in the Thor 1 after credit scene. No spear.
Originally posted by Inhuman
He mind controls selvig(sp) in the Thor 1 after credit scene. No spear.
I remember that, but it wasn't really explained how he did that. Maybe he was using the power of the Tesseract to screw with him? Point is, he clearly can't just mind control anyone on a whim, or he wouldn't have had to do the chest poke thing with everyone during the Avengers, and Iron Man's arc reactor wouldn't have prevented his mind control from working.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I remember that, but it wasn't really explained how he did that. Maybe he was using the power of the Tesseract to screw with him? Point is, he clearly can't just mind control anyone on a whim, or he wouldn't have had to do the chest poke thing with everyone during the Avengers, and Iron Man's arc reactor wouldn't have prevented his mind control from working.
He made him say what he wanted, and also was seeing everything through his eyes. whats more impressive is that he wasnt even in the room with selvig. (IF he was then Loki also has invisibility powers)
He didn't have the tesseract at that point. Shield did.
The reason he mind control people in Avengers with the staff is because he needed to have multiple people under his control. When he mind controls under his own power, he can probably just does it to one person he is concentrating on. With the staff all he needed to do was touch them with it and not focus on keeping them under his control. the staff did it all for him and with multiple people at once. He even touched selvig with the staff in avengers, indicating he had mind controlled selvig in the after credits scene under his own power.
Also he was messing peoples minds in the hell carrier while imprisoned. And again he didn't have the staff.
Originally posted by Inhuman
He made him say what he wanted, and also was seeing everything through his eyes. whats more impressive is that he wasnt even in the room with selvig. (IF he was then Loki also has invisibility powers)
He didn't have the tesseract at that point. Shield did.
This is the point though. We have no idea where he was or what he had available to him. We only see his head and shoulders. For all we know, considering how he arrives during The Avengers, he could have been standing next to Thanos while holding the Mind gem when he did that. There is also several instances throughout Thor, Thor 2 and The Avengers where being able to mind control people would have been extremely helpful, yet he never displays that ability during those instances.
Originally posted by Inhuman
The reason he mind control people in Avengers with the staff is because he needed to have multiple people under his control. When he mind controls under his own power, he can probably just does it to one person he is concentrating on. With the staff all he needed to do was touch them with it and not focus on keeping them under his control. the staff did it all for him and with multiple people at once. He even touched selvig with the staff in avengers, indicating he had mind controlled selvig in the after credits scene under his own power.
None of this is proven whatsoever. It's pure speculation on your part. Like I said, why couldn't he simply mind control Iron Man with his own abilities during their encounter then? If what you are saying is true, everyone else would already have been under his control via the staff, and no one else was around, so he could have fully focused his mind control on Iron Man, if he had been able to. Instead his mind control via the staff fails, and he gets physical with him instead.
Originally posted by Inhuman
Also he was messing peoples minds in the hell carrier while imprisoned. And again he didn't have the staff.
The scepter was clearly doing some of the influencing there. We can visibly see it start to glow more as they all get agitated, and when Banner gets close to Hulking out, he doesn't start moving in the direction of Loki's cell. He picks up the scepter with the glowing crystal instead.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This is the point though. We have no idea where he was or what he had available to him. We only see his head and shoulders. For all we know, considering how he arrives during The Avengers, he could have been standing next to Thanos while holding the Mind gem when he did that. There is also several instances throughout Thor, Thor 2 and The Avengers where being able to mind control people would have been extremely helpful, yet he never displays that ability during those instances.None of this is proven whatsoever. It's pure speculation on your part. Like I said, why couldn't he simply mind control Iron Man with his own abilities during their encounter then? If what you are saying is true, everyone else would already have been under his control via the staff, and no one else was around, so he could have fully focused his mind control on Iron Man, if he had been able to. Instead his mind control via the staff fails, and he gets physical with him instead.
The scepter was clearly doing some of the influencing there. We can visibly see it start to glow more as they all get agitated, and when Banner gets close to Hulking out, he doesn't start moving in the direction of Loki's cell. He picks up the scepter with the glowing crystal instead.
you too are speculating Loki doesn't have any mind control powers. While the answer isnt 100% clear if he does , there is more evidence to prove that he does than just saying he doesn't. Or saying he was using the mind jem next to thanos 😬
Its like Thor making that tornado against the destroyer. We never see him do it again. doesn't mean he isnt able to do it again. why didnt Thor just conjure up 100 tornadoes in the invasion? Or Why didnt he use that ground slam he did in the ice giants planet more often than just that 1 time?
Thats how movies work sometimes. But if they show a feat once, we cant just disregard it because said feat is not used all the time. The focus of the movie was the scepter and the tesseract, not loki's exotic powers.
All im getting at is that Loki does in fact posses Mind control powers to some degree ( they could be limited , who knows). But they do exist based on what we see in that scene.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, it was actually simply a case of magnetising his web shooters to hold an electric charge, so that Electro's blasts didn't fry them. Not really that much of an upgrade.It's really hard to gauge with Garfield Spidey as to what is a durability feat and what is a healing feat. Because we know he has enhanced healing, it being a main plot point between him and Harry in ASM2. The fact that he is covered from head to toe in his costume doesn't help either.
I don't think anyone is overselling Loki's durability though. Fact is, the only person shown to genuinely damage him through a pure beatdown is the Hulk. I just don't see Spidey being able to replicate that feat to drop Loki for a 10 count. But, like I said earlier, Spiderman is WAY faster, based on feats, so don't see Loki tagging him.
Electro was blasting him head on (his chest), not via his web shooters. Spiderman took it all. He also withstood that OMNI Electro did. You know, the same OMNI (while at a weaker state) that almost leveled 3 buildings.
Also, the only reason Loki was able to control Selvig was due to him having control over him previously. Nothing was shown on how Selvig reverted back to his normal self. Hell, if anything, he probably was still controlled the entire time.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, it was actually simply a case of magnetising his web shooters to hold an electric charge, so that Electro's blasts didn't fry them. Not really that much of an upgrade.It's really hard to gauge with Garfield Spidey as to what is a durability feat and what is a healing feat. Because we know he has enhanced healing, it being a main plot point between him and Harry in ASM2. The fact that he is covered from head to toe in his costume doesn't help either.
I don't think anyone is overselling Loki's durability though. Fact is, the only person shown to genuinely damage him through a pure beatdown is the Hulk. I just don't see Spidey being able to replicate that feat to drop Loki for a 10 count. But, like I said earlier, Spiderman is WAY faster, based on feats, so don't see Loki tagging him.
As I watched the movie again he has some uber strength feats, catching a car, stopping a bus but when he was punching the glass off that truck in the beginning he could not even break the glass. And he was not punching the armored truck glass, this was the glass he was punching on the towing rig pulling the armored truck. Based of that, makes me think Captain had better power behind his punches.
Originally posted by Inhuman
you too are speculating Loki doesn't have any mind control powers. While the answer isnt 100% clear if he does , there is more evidence to prove that he does than just saying he doesn't. Or saying he was using the mind jem next to thanos 😬Its like Thor making that tornado against the destroyer. We never see him do it again. doesn't mean he isnt able to do it again. why didnt Thor just conjure up 100 tornadoes in the invasion? Or Why didnt he use that ground slam he did in the ice giants planet more often than just that 1 time?
Thats how movies work sometimes. But if they show a feat once, we cant just disregard it because said feat is not used all the time. The focus of the movie was the scepter and the tesseract, not loki's exotic powers.
All im getting at is that Loki does in fact posses Mind control powers to some degree ( they could be limited , who knows). But they do exist based on what we see in that scene.
I'm not disputing that Loki doesn't have some kind of mind powers. Hell, we know for a fact he can at least astral project. I just think that his one showing of mind control without the scepter, with far too many unknown factors to the situation, isn't enough to warrant using mind control as a valid tactic in this fight. For example, how did he even know where the Tesseract is? How did he know to target Selvig? Clearly, there is way more going on there than we are shown onscreen.
Also, if Loki does have legitimate Xavier-like mind control, he has worse PIS than the average villain on Supernatural. Instances like the situation with Iron Man, the discussion with Widow in that cell, his confrontation with Malekith, being held captive in Asgard, every encounter where Thor gets in his way etc. could have all been easily solved via mind control.
Basically, all I am really saying is that we don't know enough about Loki's mental capabilities, without the scepter, to bring it up as a valid tactic in this fight. If it seemed like I was implying otherwise, I apologise, because that wasn't my intention.
Originally posted by carver9
Electro was blasting him head on (his chest), not via his web shooters. Spiderman took it all. He also withstood that OMNI Electro did. You know, the same OMNI (while at a weaker state) that almost leveled 3 buildings.
Yes, but the only thing he changed for the final fight was his web shooters. Him and Gwen Stacey still have the discussion where Peter says something along the lines of, "How can I stop him? Every time I get close he fries my web shooters." At which point they discuss options, and Gwen gives him the idea to magentise them. Every time before that, the electricity would travel through his webbing and destroy his webshooters. After magnetising them, they no longer got fried when they took a hit.
I am not questioning his durability. Just pointing out what he actually did to fix the webbing issue for the final fight. His durability is high. I bring this up myself in this thread, as well as in others. Even ignoring the poundings he takes, like hits from Lizard, tanking speeding vehicles etc, the fact that he basically tanked an electrical jolt that overloaded a guy whose powers involve controlling electricity is a damn good feat. I just wonder whether it is durability or healing that played a part there, or both. Hopefully in the future they explore his healing abilities more.
Originally posted by carver9
Also, the only reason Loki was able to control Selvig was due to him having control over him previously. Nothing was shown on how Selvig reverted back to his normal self. Hell, if anything, he probably was still controlled the entire time.
The whole Selvig thing is really confusing. We aren't shown when it happens or when Loki even becomes aware of Selvig and the Tesseract in the first place. That's what makes that mind control feat such a pain in the ass to contextualise.
Originally posted by juggerman
Remember when he tried to life Thor's hammer and nobody noticed him walking thru the area? Or saw him talking to Thor?
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
People have said that was his Astral Body, but there is no proof of that so its obvious he was walking among them invisible.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
If he can interact with objects like he was visible sounds like he could.
👆 Good points. I had forgotten about those instances.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I'm not disputing that Loki doesn't have some kind of mind powers. Hell, we know for a fact he can at least astral project. I just think that his one showing of mind control without the scepter, with far too many unknown factors to the situation, isn't enough to warrant using mind control as a valid tactic in this fight. For example, how did he even know where the Tesseract is? How did he know to target Selvig? Clearly, there is way more going on there than we are shown onscreen.Also, if Loki does have legitimate Xavier-like mind control, he has worse PIS than the average villain on Supernatural. Instances like the situation with Iron Man, the discussion with Widow in that cell, his confrontation with Malekith, being held captive in Asgard, every encounter where Thor gets in his way etc. could have all been easily solved via mind control.
Basically, all I am really saying is that we don't know enough about Loki's mental capabilities, without the scepter, to bring it up as a valid tactic in this fight. If it seemed like I was implying otherwise, I apologise, because that wasn't my intention.
Fair enough. 👆
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
People have said that was his Astral Body, but there is no proof of that so its obvious he was walking among them invisible.
Well, that is still debatable. He does seem to be using some form of astral projection during that post-credit scene at the end of Thor. Also the fact that he doesn't seem to exit via the door after talking to Thor, but rather just pops up next to the hammer, to me indicates that it was a mental projection of his body.
It just seems odd to me that Loki would have invisibility, teleportation, Xavier-like mind control etc. but never ever uses any of those abilities when they would actually be useful to him. So he either doesn't have those abilities, at least not to the extent that some people here are implying, or he is literally the most PIS suffering character in the whole MCU. I personally choose to have more faith than that in the writers over at Marvel, but that's jut my opinion.