Originally posted by Nargaroth
1. Vader's TK is above Zannah's by at least a decent degree.
I'll concede that Zannah is largely an unknown and that Vader has better feats. I'm not convinced that Vader's TK is above Zannah's by "a decent degree" though.
Dooku could likely beat her due to being even more skilled than Vader
Bane and Zannah are both technically skilled duelists. Bane trained under the battlemaster Kas'im and was later able to out-duel him until Kas'im switched to a form that Bane was unfamiliar with. Bane tried to use multiple forms against Zannah and tried to use tactics that she was unfamiliar with. Despite this, she held her own against him and he was unable to penetrate her defenses until she tripped on the graves.
Bane and Zannah are also very fast and have better force feats (than Dooku).
, and because Soresu seems to be weak against Makashi, though I'm not sure about that.
Are you basing this off of Dooku's performance against Kenobi?
Either way, Bane first tried to overpower Zannah with his brute strength and aggressiveness. I would assume he was using Djem-So at this point.
When he realized that he could not break her defenses like that, he switched to using more precision. The description of his new tactics sounded a lot like Makashi. That didn't work either.
Then Bane tried to be random and unpredictable and tried to use tactics that Zannah was unfamiliar with. This could have been more Djem-so and Makashi, or it could have been something like Niman or Juyo. This didn't work either. She held her own until she tripped on the grave.
2. Vader also mind raped Force sensitives only once, 20+ years before ROTJ, and while not even attempting to incapacitate Nick Rostu (he had a task for him, so he wouldn't do that). But fair enough, I won't necessarily claim that he is equal to Zannah , though I did it before.
I only know Nick from Shatterpoint, but I don't remember him being all that impressive. Admittingly, Sett Harth isn't all that impressive either, but at least he had some Jedi training. Zannah was casually owning Harth.
However, it could also be argued that Bane was somewhat weakened in that fight.
People who argue this usually use the points that Bane is older and had been drugged and tortured.
Bane may have been older, but he was also much more skilled. He also moved much faster than Zannah had ever seen him move.
Earlier in DoE, Bane was upset because he thought Zannah was waiting for him to become old and weak. Once he got to Ambria though, Bane did not seem to have any qualms about dueling Zannah for the mantle.
Judging by the description of how Bane performed during the battle, I do not think the torture and drugging bothered Bane at this point. Bane is just that tough.
3. Bane's preparation has no meaning in this context, considering that, by his own word, defense against sorcery based TP is a matter of willpower
If you ready yourself for an attack, your willpower to resist it is stronger than if you're caught by surprise. Zannah also did not use a fully powered illusion on him.
Regular TP , instead, is defended against mainly via mental barriers, at least in its more aggressive applications which means that you can't mentally rape a superior or equal Force user with it.
Bane was a comparable force user and yet Zannah's (weakened) illusions still had a profound effect on him. When a younger Zannah fought the battle-meditated Sarro, I would imagine he was at a minimum comparable to Zannah in force power at the time.
4.Vader could arguably do that as well.
I don't think he'd do any better against her illusions than Bane did. In fact, I think he would do worse.
5.Vader is likely even better than them, and his strenght feats include shattering crystalline pillars while gravely wounded, crushing a stormtrooper's heads, and supporting the weight of a dozen men.
Vader is physically even stronger than either of them. My point is that Zannah has experience against and can do just fine handling raw strength that is magnitudes beyond her own.
He is also considerably better than them duelling wise, not to the point that he would instantly stomp Zannah, but she stands no chance to last in a duel against him for a long time.
Vader is definitely better than Sarro, but I don't see him being above Bane.
6. Except that duelling wise, he is much better than anyone she has ever faced, and he has mastered a hybrid Djem So style that borrows elements from all combat techniques, which would probaly surprise her.
As stated earlier, Zannah handled Bane's surprises just fine. Bane also used multiple forms against her.
7. Ragdoll her? No, probably not, but considering that he has Force gripped the Starkiller clone (you know, the same guy who disintegrated half of a 300 mt ship while maintaining a Force shield) years before his prime, I'd doubt that.And even if I disregarded this example I could argue that Vader performed his best telekinetic feats years or even decades before ROTJ.
As stated earlier, I conceded that Vader has better feats.
Concerning Vader's psychological issues, you don't have to be emotionally stable to have a strong will, so he should be able to resist
It wasn't just Bane's willpower, Bane had overcome his fears. Fear is why the Jedi council was hesitant about training Anakin. Fear is what ultimately caused Anakin to lose his wife and fall to the Darkside. And after he met Luke, there was conflict. To me, it seems like Zannah's sorcery would be quite effective against him.
Pt I
LOLThe Sith masters of the Rule of Two era > Vader, Dooku, or Revan
Not sure what's so funny here, Bane is technically a product of the Banite sith line. He is also more powerful than any of the Sith pre-Tenebrous as they lack feats to compare.
Not really a fair analysis since we only see Zannah use her illusions like 3 times.Zannah was still a young apprentice when she faced Sarro. She was on a Nexus, but Sarro was roided-up on battle meditation.
Set Harth was a fallen Jedi and was definitely force sensitive. Zannah's sorcery left him in a coma for several days.
Set Harth is a half trained Jedi knight who is fodder compared to anyone Vader fought
Zannah was forced to use a weaker illusion on Bane because of the injuries that she suffered. Bane was also completely prepared for her illusion.
Source for her using a weaker illusion? She had a nexus to draw upon in Ambria that made her spells/tendrils more powerful than they were when she used them on non force sensitives. She doesn't have them in this fight.
Bane, knowing that Zannah would one day use sorcery against him, studied it to defend himself. Despite all of this, he still struggled with Zannah's illusion:
Again she drew upon the Ambrian nexus for that, if she fought Bane on neutral ground she'd have the same difficulties gathering the energy while she was getting beaten down by Bane. Vader is faster and stronger and as this is on neutral ground, she won't have the chance to prep she'll get pulverized.
Bane was able to resist and he used what seemed like Force Lightning to knock Zannah back, but despite her injuries, she quickly regained her balance
He knocked her back with his martial attacks not the force iirc.
Bane and Sarro were both physical powerhouses and Zannah did fine against them in sabers.She was still very inexperienced at dueling when she fought Sarro, yet she was smart enough to keep Johun alive. Even when she went one-on-one with Sarro, she still managed to hold him off for a while.
When she faced Bane, Bane was at first very aggressive. He tried to overpower her with brute force, but Zannah was able to hold him off. When he realized that he couldn't just power through her defenses, he switched to using more precision.
That's cool. Vader is more powerful than Bane, and is far more powerful than fodder like Sarro. Bane's only notable strength feat is lifting a durasteel door which Vader has replicated:
Not really a fair analysis since we only see Zannah use her illusions like 3 times.Zannah was still a young apprentice when she faced Sarro. She was on a Nexus, but Sarro was roided-up on battle meditation.
Not sure what's unfair here none of the Jedi are particularly noteworthy, and Zannah still had an advantage in the nexus whereas the Jedi would've been hampered by the darkside energy if Karpashyn knew how to write. Regardless, Sarro is featless and Zannah only "beat" him because Johun ****ed up the rhythm of battle. Vader is considerably more powerful than Johun, and its noted that Zannah required time to prep her illusions in order to use them.
Zannah was forced to use a weaker illusion on Bane because of the injuries that she suffered. Bane was also completely prepared for her illusion.
Bane was able to resist and he used what seemed like Force Lightning to knock Zannah back, but despite her injuries, she quickly regained her balance
Vader doesn't use FL and his TK is immeasurably more powerful than Bane's, he can just ragdoll her whereas he had trouble overpowering her completely and with his force abilities
He's supported the weight of a dozen stormtroopers
The energy beams didn't slow him down, though. Eppon picked up another trooper as though he weighed nothing, and hurled the armored soldier at the rest of the troop. The stormtroopers stumbled backward in a clatter of armor, crashing into Vader. The weight of a dozen men was not enough to move the Dark Lord, but the confusion caused by the troopers gave Gog an opening.-
Vader has hurled a droid halfway across a lab while still injured from his duel on Mustafar
The humaniform 2-1B was in the midst of executing Vader's instructions when sparks geysered from Vader's left forearm, and blue electricity began to gambol across his chest. With an infuriated growl, Vader lifted the injured arm, hurling the med droid halfway across the laboratory.
Vader has smashed a crystal pillar while injured
PT II Telekinetic/str showings
Vader has also smashed the armored helmet of a Stormtrooper with ease.
To summarize, Sarro is nowhere near as powerful as Vader, and Vader's showings eclipse Bane' in quality and quantity. Vader can easily overpower Zannah.
Zannah was doing just fine against Bane until she tripped on the graves.
Vader isn't bringing anything to the table that Zannah hasn't dealt with.
He's bring superior strength, superior speed, and superior skill. Nothing Zannah has ever dealt with in terms of feats.
Zannah is prodigy in TK. As a little girl with no training at all, she was killing Jedi and tearing off limbs. Vader isn't going to be TKing her.
Zannah's best feats with TK are blowing up her cousins hand, snapping a neck, and that's really it. Those were all feats that she accomplished as a child, and she never replicated them as they were more indications of her raw power int he force. Vader's TK feats may as well be in another universe when compared to Zannah's crappy showings
Vader lifts and hurls a Y wing
Vader collapses a cathedral
Vader has crushed a TIE fighter in mid-flight
He's hurled a Stone table at Starkiller with enough force to destroy pillars and knock him back
Before Starkiller could reach out for where his lightsaber lay fallen on the ground, the stone conference table lifted into the air and hurled itself at him. Crashing through three of the pillars and catching him squarely in the chest, it drove him out into the snow. Ignoring everyone else in the room, Vader strode heavily after him, lightsaber raised.The apprentice crouched facedown in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to one mis take his Master had made.
-The Force Unleashed
He's hurled Missiles
He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked. Then the apprentice straightened and, with a sweep of his left arm, blew the missiles away. He blocked a savage slash that would have cut him in two and another that would have lifted his head clean from his shoulders.
-The Force Unleashed
He's thrown destroyed platforms and cloning tubes at him
Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circledthe top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again. Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.
-The Force unleashed 2
He's shattered Aluminum Densecris, which was thought 'unbreakable'
Vader inhaled, holding the dry and slightly bitter air for as long as his scarred lungs could manage it. When he allowed the breath to be drawn from him by the respirator, he thrust his right hand toward a nearby mirror. The aluminized densecris shattered into a thousand pieces, struck by the dark side as if by a metal fist.Vader was aware of the "unbreakable" substance splintering and falling, tinkling onto the floor, myriad reflections sparkling in the light as they seemed to move in slow motion.
-Death Star
He's crushed a droid more massive than himself
He's blown through ****ing durasteel
Here he sends a man flying along with debris
He's hurled a Massive boulder than killed multiple people
With a casual wrist move he uproots a tree and kills a massive creature
He's sent thirty people airborne
Vader collapses a massive tree
Vader hurls a ship
[/spoiler]
He's also collapsed ceilings, hurled other massive beasts with a flick of his wrist, choked out Starkiller, etc. Vader is so far above Zannah in telekinesis I'm amazed you're even challenging the point. Vader has more than enough requisite power to choke Zannah out, ragdoll her, or oneshot her in any fashion before she can reaxt
Vader is also faster, more durable, and more powerful in the force than Zannah is. Her illusions won't affect him, as he can simply overpower and kill her with TK.
Zannah has only beaten Set Harth. Vader has defeated Luke Skywalker ESB, Sha Koon, Dark Woman, beaten a Darth Maul doppelganger, beaten Roan Shryne, Defeated 5 Jedi while barely adjusting to his suit, beaten Celeste Morne, fought evenly with Old Ben Kenobi.
I can post more feats, but I'd be wasting my time really. Vader is demonstrably above Zannah and sits among the most powerful Sith.
Yeah Vader's TK feats shows overall he's way stronger than Zannah in force power. His Lightsaber skills is also above hers, since he fused the 7 forms to make his own deadly form. I don't see how Zannah can contend besides her Sith Sorcery, which is nifty and all but I think Vader would just crush her before she can pull anything off.
Vader's TK is only surpassed by his grandson (Caedus), The Emperor, and Darth Plagueis. Zannah is thoroughly outclassed as a swordsman, as for her sorcery she struggled to use her spells when Sarro and Bane were on her pounding her. Vader is faster and more powerful than her, she won't get a chance at all.
Bane and Zannah are both technically skilled duelists. Bane trained under the battlemaster Kas'im and was later able to out-duel him until Kas'im switched to a form that Bane was unfamiliar with. Bane tried to use multiple forms against Zannah and tried to use tactics that she was unfamiliar with. Despite this, she held her own against him and he was unable to penetrate her defenses until she tripped on the graves.
Bane has no dueling feats aside from fighting evenly with Darth Zannah and beating a featless trainee Sirrak. His victory over Kas'im was entirely circumstantial due to drawing on the Lehon nexus to collapse the temple, and he was losing the saber portion of the duel. Vader would lolstomp Kas'im, and has infinitely superior dueling feats to either of them.
Bane and Zannah are also very fast and have better force feats (than Dooku).
Lolnope. Vader has moved fast enough to appear to teleport:
He's killed Roan Lands faster than Ferus Olin could perceive
"He is a former associate, yes, but --"It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.
The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.
Source: "Last of the Jedi: Secret Weapon"
He's moved his saber faster than the eye could travel
Faster than a human eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber was up, activated and moving. Grammel's slashed form pitched wildly, stumbled backward and tumbled over the side of the crawler. There was a lull as the stunned driver looked on in terror.
Source: "Splinter Of The Mind's Eye"
He's moved his saber fast enough to form a blue blur
"No," Vader assured him, "no. You overestimate yourself, child." The Dark Lord drew himself up to his full, awesome height. "I have finished playing with you."Swinging his saber until it was no more than a blue blur in the dank air of the temple, he leaped straight up into the air. It was more than a jump, less than levitation. Out of the blue circle of energy he flung the saber.
Source: "Splinter Of The Mind's Eye"
He's fought invisibly fast, in a blur, etc.
He's also appeared fast enough as to appear as though he materialized from thin air
Zannah and Bane have Zero speed feats to compare to Vader. Bane couldn't even react fast enough to deflect every slow moving water drop in his "rain feat", and Zannah has no notable speed feats at all.
Originally posted by red8
I'll concede that Zannah is largely an unknown and that Vader has better feats. I'm not convinced that Vader's TK is above Zannah's by "a decent degree" though.
It certainly is. Vader's feats from decades before ROTJ exceed Zannah's feats as a child, not to mention that, in her case, they seem to be more showings of potential than power, not unlike Mortis Anakin's feats.
By DOE or even ROT she would most likely have achieved that potential (meaning that she could willingly replicate them), but it's still not enough to put her on a comparable level to Vader, who has also performed his best TK showings years or even decades before ROTJ.
Originally posted by red8
Bane and Zannah are both technically skilled duelists. Bane trained under the battlemaster Kas'im and was later able to out-duel him until Kas'im switched to a form that Bane was unfamiliar with. Bane tried to use multiple forms against Zannah and tried to use tactics that she was unfamiliar with. Despite this, she held her own against him and he was unable to penetrate her defenses until she tripped on the graves.
Of course they are, and that's why I said that Zannah wouldn't be instantly stomped (Bane also wouldn't). It's not just about switching forms. Vader's style borrows elements from all forms, while Zannah uses classical Soresu. Regardless, Vader is just much more skilled than them, especially as of ROTJ, and Bane's inability to break through her defenses doesn't mean that Vader couldn't.
Originally posted by red8
Bane and Zannah are also very fast and have better force feats (than Dooku).
Agreed (at least in Bane's case, but I'm not sure about Zannah), though Dooku's superiority in duelling skill is considerably more gaping than is theirs in Force Power. And given the fact that, in most cases, skill with the lightsaber is more important than power, unless there is a really huge difference between two opponents, I still think that Dooku could win a majority against them, but this is off topic.
Originally posted by red8
Are you basing this off of Dooku's performance against Kenobi?Either way, Bane first tried to overpower Zannah with his brute strength and aggressiveness. I would assume he was using Djem-So at this point.
When he realized that he could not break her defenses like that, he switched to using more precision. The description of his new tactics sounded a lot like Makashi. That didn't work either.
Then Bane tried to be random and unpredictable and tried to use tactics that Zannah was unfamiliar with. This could have been more Djem-so and Makashi, or it could have been something like Niman or Juyo. This didn't work either. She held her own until she tripped on the grave.
As I said, I'm not sure about that, but no, I wasn't talking about Dooku's performance against Obi-wan, as the former was unable to penetrate the latter's defenses anyways.
Originally posted by red8
I only know Nick from Shatterpoint, but I don't remember him being all that impressive. Admittingly, Sett Harth isn't all that impressive either, but at least he had some Jedi training. Zannah was casually owning Harth.
I never stated that Nick is impressive, only that he is a Force sensitive, which would automatically give him mental defenses against TP. The difference is that Zannah was in her prime, while Vader was far from it, and they were both holding back, but Zannah's application should still be superior due to being able to affect Bane's mind.
Originally posted by red8
People who argue this usually use the points that Bane is older and had been drugged and tortured.Bane may have been older, but he was also much more skilled. He also moved much faster than Zannah had ever seen him move.
Earlier in DoE, Bane was upset because he thought Zannah was waiting for him to become old and weak. Once he got to Ambria though, Bane did not seem to have any qualms about dueling Zannah for the mantle.
Judging by the description of how Bane performed during the battle, I do not think the torture and drugging bothered Bane at this point. Bane is just that tough.
I just read the battle again, and no, he wasn't weakened and there is no indication of it in the battle, so I think I'll concede this point.
Originally posted by red8
If you ready yourself for an attack, your willpower to resist it is stronger than if you're caught by surprise. Zannah also did not use a fully powered illusion on him.Bane was a comparable force user and yet Zannah's (weakened) illusions still had a profound effect on him. When a younger Zannah fought the battle-meditated Sarro, I would imagine he was at a minimum comparable to Zannah in force power at the time.
I don't think he'd do any better against her illusions than Bane did. In fact, I think he would do worse.
Sorcery based TP is not defended against by being comparable in power, unlike regular TP, but by having enough strenght of will. Which indicates that your opponent's power doen't have that much value.
And Sarro was also affected by that nexus, so he was both amped and weakened and most likely in a neutral state during that battle, considering that these two elements would cancel out. This means that Zannah was amped to a greater degree.
You might also take into account the fact that Vader can willingly concentrate on his rage for up to 2 minutes in Shadows Of The Empire to heal himself:
"Vader took a deep breath, blew it out, then took another. The energies of the dark side filled him, and he could once again breathe as a normal man did. He focused his anger. It was not right that he be crippled, that he couldn't do this all the time. It was... not... right! The healing energies held. As long as he could maintain his indignation, his lungs and breathing passages stayed open and clear. He fed the fires of his rage with the unfairness of a galaxy that would not let him be whole. Still the healing energies held. He fought the sense of relief he felt. Fought it and kept his anger pure. And still they held. Almost two minutes now. A new record."
Now, this is a healng feat, but to me it suggests that Zannah's illusions might only enrage him, allowing him to resist and push her back. After all, Force Rage is one of the most important assets in Vader's arsenal, moreso than Bane, who seems to be more controlled in this regard.
Furthermore, in the Lost Command, Saro's illusions mostly pissed Vader off, and he was certainly much more troubled than he was in ROTJ (disregarding his battle against Luke).
Originally posted by red8
Vader is physically even stronger than either of them. My point is that Zannah has experience against and can do just fine handling raw strength that is magnitudes beyond her own.
I never claimed that she wouldn't handle Vader well because of strenght, but because of the latter's skill.
Originally posted by red8
Vader is definitely better than Sarro, but I don't see him being above Bane.
Vader is certainly much better than Bane duelling wise. Contending with Darth Maul, one of the most skilled duellists in Sith history by both accolades and feats (though Vader nearly lost, to be fair), beating groups of Jedi before even getting used to his armor, beating the Dark Woman, easily defeating multiple Jedi on Kashykk atc. are all feats that far exceed anything Bane or Zannah have ever done.
And this is without considering the fact that he became far more skilled between ANH and ROTJ. Keeping in mind that all of the above mentioned feats were performed before and up to ANH.
There are also several accolades that support this point, like being identified as incredibly skilled, being one of the best duellists of all time (though this could be ambiguous) and being stated as an unparalleled duellist.
Originally posted by red8
It wasn't just Bane's willpower, Bane had overcome his fears. Fear is why the Jedi council was hesitant about training Anakin. Fear is what ultimately caused Anakin to lose his wife and fall to the Darkside. And after he met Luke, there was conflict. To me, it seems like Zannah's sorcery would be quite effective against him.
I really doubt she would be able to use them, however. Against Bane, she was pressed enough that she had to take her time to recover after Bane was put under the illusions.
Against Vader, she would be in far greater trouble due to skill disparity, which would give Vader more time than Bane to face the illusions. Regardless, Vader can draw on his rage willingly to handle Zannah's sorcery.
And this would be the case only IF she managed to use her illusions against him, which is unlikely to happen, because Vader can duel her and at the same time throw debris at her from all directions without gesturing like he did against Roan Shryne, or summon winds via Alter Environment for further distraction.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Vader is certainly much better than Bane duelling wise. Contending with Darth Maul, one of the most skilled duellists in Sith history by both accolades and feats (though Vader nearly lost, to be fair), beating groups of Jedi before even getting used to his armor, beating the Dark Woman, easily defeating multiple Jedi on Kashykk atc. are all feats that far exceed anything Bane or Zannah have ever done.And this is without considering the fact that he became far more skilled between ANH and ROTJ. Keeping in mind that all of the above mentioned feats were performed before and up to ANH.
There are also several accolades that support this point, like being identified as incredibly skilled, being one of the best duellists of all time (though this could be ambiguous) and being stated as an unparalleled duellist.
I don't think you're giving Bane his fair shake here while giving Vader some undeserved props. Vader basically lost to Maul and none of the other stuff you mentioned "far exceed anything Bane or Zannah have ever done". Beating a bunch of fodder Jedi isn't that impressive. Bane also fought with one of, if not the most skilled Sith in history and would have defeated him outright were it not for Kas'im having engineered a weakness into his training. And Bane fought off a BM-enhanced Raskta Lsu, who was also unbelievably skilled.
Bane is also quite a bit faster and more agile than Vader is and is phenomenally skilled in his own right in basically all forms. Frankly, Bane would defeat Vader in a lightsaber duel quite handily.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think you're giving Bane his fair shake here while giving Vader some undeserved props. Vader basically lost to Maul and none of the other stuff you mentioned "far exceed anything Bane or Zannah have ever done". Beating a bunch of fodder Jedi isn't that impressive. Bane also fought with one of, if not [b]the most skilled Sith in history and would have defeated him outright were it not for Kas'im having engineered a weakness into his training. And Bane fought off a BM-enhanced Raskta Lsu, who was also unbelievably skilled.Bane is also quite a bit faster and more agile than Vader is and is phenomenally skilled in his own right in basically all forms. Frankly, Bane would defeat Vader in a lightsaber duel quite handily. [/B]
He didn't lose to Maul, and all I said is that he contended with him for a long time, and NEARLY lost, which is true, and Maul himself is a far superior duellist than Zannah and Bane, especially the former, by both feats and accolades.
And if you're referring to Kas'im, lol, you're basically telling me that he is one of the best just because Bane said so. That's nothing but his point of view, and he has no knowledge on other duellists of previous eras, especially Exar Kun, who would stomp Kas'im.
Maul, on the other hand was identified as one of the most skilled by objective, out of universe sources.
Vader improved a lot in skill after his duel with Maul, therefore he is more skilled than Bane by an even greater degree, so how the latter would be able able to even last against ROTJ Vader is honestly beyond me. Am I saying that he would be utterly stomped? No, but he isn't even close in this regard either.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
He didn't lose to Maul, and all I said is that he contended with him for a long time, and NEARLY lost, which is true, and Maul himself is a far superior duellist than Zannah and Bane, especially the former, by both feats and accolades.And if you're referring to Kas'im, lol, you're basically telling me that he is one of the best just because Bane said so. That's nothing but his point of view, and he has no knowledge on other duellists of previous eras, especially Exar Kun, who would stomp Kas'im.
Maul, on the other hand was identified as one of the most skilled by objective, out of universe sources.
Vader improved a lot in skill after his duel with Maul, therefore he is more skilled than Bane by an even greater degree, so how the latter would be able able to even last against ROTJ Vader is honestly beyond me. Am I saying that he would be utterly stomped? No, but he isn't even close in this regard either.
And I didn't say he lost to Maul, I said he basically lost to Maul. Maul disarmed him and had him on his knees while preparing for the killing stroke. And LMAO at Maul being a superior duelist to Bane and Zannah. Both would handle him rather easily.
No, I'm not telling you that. I said that he was one of the best and didn't elaborate on it. I will now though. I'm not saying he is one of the best because Bane said so. He is one of the best because he completely mastered all the lightsaber forms and stretched his mastery to utter perfection with decades of obsessive refinement. He also invented many of the sequences and techniques taught in the academy. Kas'im's lightsaber skill cannot be questioned, his mastery of lightsaber combat was described as being more complete than that of nearly anyone else in the mythos. Only his lack of exceptional power in the Force prevents him from being a true titan.
I don't care if Maul was. Being one of the most skilled matters very little, since basically every notable combatant discussed on these boards qualifies for that description.
Ridiculous. Bane is more powerful and significantly faster and more agile. He'd beat Vader with perhaps some effort. The fact that Vader improved his skill matters very little, he simply cannot compete for very long against a being of Bane's caliber. That Bane is also an exceptional duelist only cements his victory. The idea that Vader is far above Bane in lightsaber combat is utterly laughable, no offense. And you're ignoring the fact that Bane also improved his ability after his fight with Kas'im. So Vader refining his skill isn't exactly something unique to him.
BTW you were wrong earlier, power is more important than skill.