The Juggernaut

Originally posted by juggerman

What's stopping him from using any of his more exotic power?

King was trying to make the point earlier, that, according to KMC rules, people should be fighting in character. If Thing doesn't make it a habit to use environmental resources and sound tactics in a fight, if in fact he really is just a brawler in the type of scenario proposed here, then one showing shouldn't really be given a lot of weight.

There's a fair amount of merit to that, which is why I steered King toward ODG's Revamped Hulk Respect Thread. There you'll find plenty of instances of Thing fighting a VERY close stand-in for Juggernaut, with the exceptions that Hulk, though less durable, is faster than Juggernaut, and generally held to be stronger as well. And using intelligent NON-brawling tactics time after time after time.
They get physical, of course, there's no way you can be the Thing, a character with no innate weapons, and not be physical to some extent.
But reading practically any of the 20 or more encounters Hulk has had with Thing over the span of decades proves Thing is a thinking fighter.

With your "Juggernaut, Master of Magic" entry though ...?
What you're talking about here is something that, if ever
encountered before, is something so remote and one-shot (Juggernaut spell-casting) that even the man that posted it doesn't seem to know the magazine it appeared in and did not give the reference information.

It would scarcely matter if he could. It would be about as in-character and likely to occur in our mythical fight scenario here as Hulk flying against Juggernaut.
Which, if we go back to the early days, COULD theoretically have happened, and for about 3 issues of comics, Marvel seems to have toyed with the idea, as the writer of the following blog points out:

http://west3man.blogspot.com/2009/03/hulk-fly.html

Not happening.

If you want me to make you happy and say "Well, if he DID use magic like that, and have skill in using said magic, and could shrink Thing at will or turn him into a cabbage or something with a mere wave of both hands, he'd perfect Thing 10 out of 10 times"?

Well, here, let me go on and say that for you:

"Wow, if Juggernaut DID use magic like that, and have skill in using said magic, and could shrink Thing at will or turn him into a cabbage or something with a mere wave of both hands, he'd perfect Thing 10 out of 10 times!
10 out of 10! Juggernaut is awesome!"

And he IS awesome.

But he's not, in character, going by KMC's guidelines, a spell-casting magic user.
Anymore than Hulk is a character that flies.

I should make clear: Although I really DO think Juggernaut would find himself continually relocated from point A to point B in a fight with Grimm, that doesn't mean I think he's less likely to be the winner than Ben.
Fact, I'd give Jug the majority, not an even 5/5 split.

The exact percentages are going to depend on how far Thing has proven, on average, to hurl a weight of about 1500 pounds (the weight of Juggernaut plus a small section of whatever material he happens to be standing on).
Thing from the eras where he's moving around building sized objects and similar sized opponents BFRs Jug. Period.

How long? Well, THAT we can debate ...

Originally posted by juggerman
And as Ben is ripping up the street what is Juggernaut doing exactly?

What's stopping him from just stomping his foot and crumbling any "street" Thing is trying to lift?

What's stopping him from just running at his full speed and slamming into Ben before he has a chance to lift said street?

Either you're not thinking this through, or you have never in your life seen comic characters in Ben's weight class perform this maneuver.

It's not some all-day construction project for a 50+ tonner.
It takes a literal second. Juggernaut can be doing anything he wants to be.
He's still going to be scooped up and tossed.
You HAVE to prove Jug can resist gravity itself before you can stop this maneuver. Juggernaut stomping his feet is not going to do it.
Juggernaut stomping his feat and crumbling the street, in fact, is likely to aid Thing. If the ground beneath Juggernaut's feet crumples, where is Jug going to go? The sewers down below are about the only place left him.
Face it -- unless you go the unlikely magic route, Juggernaut, being a ground-based character, has no true defense against the shovel and toss.

Originally posted by riv6672
He could hit Juggernaut from behind, with s truck or other large improvised weapon like Fly suggested, knocking him out of the area, using his own momentum against him.

Or a simple taunt and dodge and Juggernaut hoes in a manhole, in the rover, etc.

And thats great, but this is hardly the only tactic that could or would be used by Ben.
My one off comment is not a deciding factor much as i and certainly you, might want it to be.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
If Juggernaut is taking even one step then that truck won't move him at all. Matter of fact I think Rogue ran a speeding 18 wheeler into him once and he didn't budge.

That was Spider-Man.

Scroll down to the middle of the following page and you can see the images.

You can't really tell if Jug moved or not, though.
Because the 18 wheeler was a gasoline truck.

So Juggernaut was engulfed in an explosion an instant later.

http://junkfoodforthought-krisshaw.blogspot.com/2013/10/review-spider-man-nothing-can-stop.html

If you scroll roughly to the middle of this page, which follows Juggernaut stepping on a fire hydrant and dousing the flames from that explosion, you can see the conclusion of the first Spider-Man/Juggernaut battle and Jug's vulnerability to ground treachery.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/juggernaut-vs-itachispiderman-miroku-captain-ginyu-421485/

Its very telling that of all the characters listed in the OP this has broken down to Juggernaut/Ben.
He IS the character that could/would get the win here.

Originally posted by riv6672
Its very telling that of all the characters listed in the OP this has broken down to Juggernaut/Ben.
He IS the character that could/would get the win here.

Well, to be honest, most of the people on this list I did not bother with because I don't know very much about them. Of the ones I DO know something about, it is actually Crusher Creel, better known as the Absorbing Man, who'd be my top choice for taking down Juggernaut, not Ben.

In fact, given his battles against Thor, where he absorbed part of his surroundings and became giant, and apparently not only absorbed the strength of Thor, but at one point the properties of Mjolnir itself,
I'd say Absorbing Man beats Juggernaut even if Juggernaut COULD cast magic spells.

(Note, for instance, that Creel's ability to gain mass from his surroundings negates the shrinking spell we saw, unless Jug has the power to shrink the entire planet Earth down to nothing.)

Actually, now that I come to it again, the following, from least to most difficult for Juggernaut to clear from OP's list (at least as I understand them), is as follows:

1. Colossus

2. Sasquatch

3. Rulk

4. Classic Hercules

5. Classic Abomination

6. Flint Marko*

7. (Semi-Classic) Thing

8. Movie Sandman*
9. Loebforce Rulk

10. Crusher Creel

I knew if i posted that opinion someone'd contradict it. 🙂

I suppose I should explain the rationale behind my ranking:

1. Colossus -- least difficult opponent. probably tougher than Sasquatch, the #2 on this list in terms of actual physical durability but nothing suggests he'd fare better or even as well. only encounter I know of outside of the X-Men's standard engagement is a one-on-one bar fight these two had when Marko was in his civvies. Pete got wasted there. He'd probably get wasted here.
Unless he gets his Cytorrak power-up for this thread, but I don't think the OP intended Pete to have that.

2. Sasquatch -- relative unknown. seen him described as stronger than Thing, so, de facto, he'd probably be stronger than Colossus. Might have a slightly easier time of it than Pete would, for, despite his reputation, Juggernaut is actually fairly sparing of people he doesn't know. He'd go less hard on this guy than Colossus, whom he KNOWS can take some punishment

3. Rulk -- somehow, this guy seems excessively depowered since his last defeat at the true Hulk's hands. Presumably stronger than Colossus, Thing, or Sasquatch by virtue of proving stronger than Savage Hulk on debut, though part of that was later revealed to be him gaining strength from absorbing opponent energies. Placed higher than Colossus or Sasquatch not only for strength and presumed healing factor, but also for acknowledgement of his savvy in battle.
Rulk IS a tactician, arguably better than Ben. Placed lower than Ben because he DOESN'T seem to have Ben's indomitable will to win or Ben's extensive experience in grappling physically with stronger opponents.

4. Classic Hercules -- I saw this guy crush Thunderball's wrecking ball.
I've seen him match Classic Thor, who actually displayed strength enough to crush a TANK down into a replacement hammer for Mjolnir. Guy is strong ... very strong ...

5. Classic Abomination -- Hulk is, of course, regarded as the strongest of Marvel's classic hero characters. Superior to Thing, Sasquatch, Hercules, and even Thor. But this guy ... ? Even stronger. If memory serves, TWICE the deus ex machina strength of Savage Hulk. At least base Savage Hulk.
Toughest pure brick on this list as a result.
As we all know, however, Juggernaut has a forcefield.
Unknown if Jug can hurt this guy. Abomination was elite level physical power back in the day. But it takes more than pure strength and durability to defeat Jug's "tank" empowerment; this would be a stalemate at best.
BFR would be more effective if tried by A-bomb than almost anyone else.
Don't think he has history or character propensity TO try that, though.

6. Flint Marko* -- Asterisked because I'm not sure what powers the OP thinks he possesses now. Someone told me he has control over sandmass outside his own, and perhaps even various other materials. Good chance if he can control massive amounts of construction or refinery materials for BFR.

7. (Semi-Classic) Thing -- Extensive history fighting an opponent who is STRONGER than Juggernaut (Hulk). And sometimes coming out on top. Extensive use of tactics and environmental resources including habitual battlefield removal. IN New York City. Good knowledge of the land and water of the area. Inventive, daring, willful. To be sure, Juggernaut still has the advantage here. But not nearly by as much as people think.
Check out ODG's "Hulk Revamped Respect thread" to see fight versatility from this supposed "brawler" that might surprise you.

8. Movie Sandman* -- This guy had command of BUILDING sized masses of sand, earth, and other material. Which has stopped Juggernaut for periods of weeks to MONTHS before. If the OP has in mind a Sandman like the one we get at the end of Spider-Man 3, this fight is Marko's to lose.

9. Loebforce Rulk -- He absorbed gamma radiation from Hulk. He absorbed sound energy from Klaw. He absorbed heat energy from a reactor. He absorbed cosmic energy from the Surfer. He apparently absorbed MAGIC energy from Thor, and used it to beat Thor from Earth to the Moon.
There doesn't seem to have been any form of energy Rulk could NOT absorb and get stronger from under the pen of Jeph Loeb. I could seriously see Loebforce Rulk gaining power from Juggernaut a la Rogue or Absorbing Man himself and coming out on top. This was like the Bugs Bunny of bricks.

10. Crusher Creel -- As alluded to before, this guy handled the full range of Thor's abilities, Thor's FULL abilities if memory serves, not merely the hammer and fist we normally see when Thor fights, say, Hulk or Hercules.

Probably the only character who could handle Juggernaut even if energy globules, shrinking casts and other spells WERE employed. If Crusher Creel with his full Absorbing Man powers is kept at the #3 spot on our original thread list, that's as far as Cain gets.

Great read. 👆

Blue brings up a very interesting point actually about Ben tossing Juggernaut

I always thought it was weird that when (in example) the x-men fought WWH Hellion didn't just lift a piece of the ground beneath him and toss him into the air, or when the x-men fought Juggernaut that Jean didn't just use his momentum and send him flying into the next state...

Bad writing is my knee jerk answer, but really, sometimes characters just dont fight at their best.

Originally posted by riv6672
Bad writing is my knee jerk answer, but really, sometimes characters just dont fight at their best.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I suppose I should explain the rationale behind my ranking:

1. Colossus -- least difficult opponent. probably tougher than Sasquatch, the #2 on this list in terms of actual physical durability but nothing suggests he'd fare better or even as well. only encounter I know of outside of the X-Men's standard engagement is a one-on-one bar fight these two had when Marko was in his civvies. Pete got wasted there. He'd probably get wasted here.
Unless he gets his Cytorrak power-up for this thread, but I don't think the OP intended Pete to have that.

2. Sasquatch -- relative unknown. seen him described as stronger than Thing, so, de facto, he'd probably be stronger than Colossus. Might have a slightly easier time of it than Pete would, for, despite his reputation, Juggernaut is actually fairly sparing of people he doesn't know. He'd go less hard on this guy than Colossus, whom he KNOWS can take some punishment

3. Rulk -- somehow, this guy seems excessively depowered since his last defeat at the true Hulk's hands. Presumably stronger than Colossus, Thing, or Sasquatch by virtue of proving stronger than Savage Hulk on debut, though part of that was later revealed to be him gaining strength from absorbing opponent energies. Placed higher than Colossus or Sasquatch not only for strength and presumed healing factor, but also for acknowledgement of his savvy in battle.
Rulk IS a tactician, arguably better than Ben. Placed lower than Ben because he DOESN'T seem to have Ben's indomitable will to win or Ben's extensive experience in grappling physically with stronger opponents.

4. Classic Hercules -- I saw this guy crush Thunderball's wrecking ball.
I've seen him match Classic Thor, who actually displayed strength enough to crush a TANK down into a replacement hammer for Mjolnir. Guy is strong ... very strong ...

5. Classic Abomination -- Hulk is, of course, regarded as the strongest of Marvel's classic hero characters. Superior to Thing, Sasquatch, Hercules, and even Thor. But this guy ... ? Even stronger. If memory serves, TWICE the deus ex machina strength of Savage Hulk. At least base Savage Hulk.
Toughest pure brick on this list as a result.
As we all know, however, Juggernaut has a forcefield.
Unknown if Jug can hurt this guy. Abomination was elite level physical power back in the day. But it takes more than pure strength and durability to defeat Jug's "tank" empowerment; this would be a stalemate at best.
BFR would be more effective if tried by A-bomb than almost anyone else.
Don't think he has history or character propensity TO try that, though.

6. Flint Marko* -- Asterisked because I'm not sure what powers the OP thinks he possesses now. Someone told me he has control over sandmass outside his own, and perhaps even various other materials. Good chance if he can control massive amounts of construction or refinery materials for BFR.

7. (Semi-Classic) Thing -- Extensive history fighting an opponent who is STRONGER than Juggernaut (Hulk). And sometimes coming out on top. Extensive use of tactics and environmental resources including habitual battlefield removal. IN New York City. Good knowledge of the land and water of the area. Inventive, daring, willful. To be sure, Juggernaut still has the advantage here. But not nearly by as much as people think.
Check out ODG's "Hulk Revamped Respect thread" to see fight versatility from this supposed "brawler" that might surprise you.

8. Movie Sandman* -- This guy had command of BUILDING sized masses of sand, earth, and other material. Which has stopped Juggernaut for periods of weeks to MONTHS before. If the OP has in mind a Sandman like the one we get at the end of Spider-Man 3, this fight is Marko's to lose.

9. Loebforce Rulk -- He absorbed gamma radiation from Hulk. He absorbed sound energy from Klaw. He absorbed heat energy from a reactor. He absorbed cosmic energy from the Surfer. He apparently absorbed MAGIC energy from Thor, and used it to beat Thor from Earth to the Moon.
There doesn't seem to have been any form of energy Rulk could NOT absorb and get stronger from under the pen of Jeph Loeb. I could seriously see Loebforce Rulk gaining power from Juggernaut a la Rogue or Absorbing Man himself and coming out on top. This was like the Bugs Bunny of bricks.

10. Crusher Creel -- As alluded to before, this guy handled the full range of Thor's abilities, Thor's FULL abilities if memory serves, not merely the hammer and fist we normally see when Thor fights, say, Hulk or Hercules.

Probably the only character who could handle Juggernaut even if energy globules, shrinking casts and other spells WERE employed. If Crusher Creel with his full Absorbing Man powers is kept at the #3 spot on our original thread list, that's as far as Cain gets.

Nice breakdown

Originally posted by krisblaze
yeah it's obviously a lame cop-out, but it just seems like such an incredible tactic. Even for just throwing someone off balance 😛

Originally posted by riv6672
Bad writing is my knee jerk answer, but really, sometimes characters just dont fight at their best.

👆

Calling this up because I was hoping whoever showed me Juggernaut using magic spells could tell me where and/or when that showing is from.

Classic Juggernaut straight through.