So what's your story?

I grew up with both my parents being practicing, devout Christians. I was obligated to go to church by them for years, including mass and all that.

I believed for a long time. Perhaps I was fifteen or sixteen? Anyway, I soon realized that there's not much evidence supporting God's existence and don't even get me started on the religious aspect. I found there was much to be critical of and little good that came out of religion, it's dogma, and it's influences.

I still continued to go to church after I stepped out of the realm of belief because I had an abusive mother who gave me the option (if you want to use that term) to go to church or be kicked out onto the street.

At this moment, I consider myself antireligious and an atheist. My thing is that a God/Gods could exist but it's irrelevant to my personal beliefs because those require sound evidence, something that I find is lacking in terms of the presence of a God and/or Gods.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't think you understand what you're asking.

What do you mean "why?" Ask your question but ask it much more directly. Don't be afraid: I won't bite.

If your superficial question is taken as is, you're asking, "Why do you think God exists if God exists?"

America is a divine country.

Originally posted by Firefly218
I realized it was crap at 6 years old, when my mom told me non-christians go to hell for eternity. Didn't seem right to me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It sounds like you asking about a religious moment. Kind of like being born again. 🙄

Originally posted by SamZED
A good friend of mine had a "religious moment" several months after his father died of cancer. We don't talk as much because he's waaay into religion these days, spends a lot of time in church. But it helped him deal with a longlasting depression so meh.. whatever works I guess.

Originally posted by SamZED
Had a similar moment but I was a bit older than 6.

A good friend of mine had a "religious moment" several months after his father died of cancer. We don't talk as much because he's waaay into religion these days, spends a lot of time in church. But it helped him deal with a longlasting depression so meh.. whatever works I guess.

There is a place for that, but I wouldn't think Atheism would ever be that place. The question just seemed ironic.

Originally posted by Mindship
This prompts me to ask: Are there any atheists here who have had similar, profound losses? What got you through your grief? Family? Friends? If so, were they also atheists? What did you find yourself saying/thinking, especially when by yourself? I'm genuinely curious.

This isn't your intent, but this question can be tricky to deal with because it's not far from the less informed questions of "How do atheists {insert thing}?" Such lines of questioning often presume that there is one universal substitute for atheists, or it's presented in a slightly accusatory manner as if there can't be an acceptably comforting substitute outside a religious context.

Again, I realize this isn't your intent. But it could be read by others as such. So I'm just hedging my response here.

For myself, I can't really describe a profound difference. The coping mechanisms for grief are intrinsic and fairly common throughout humanity. That some people tend to ascribe them to religious reasoning is just window dressing. The internal process is the same or very similar. It's the same when people ask how you find meaning outside of religion. Some legitimately can't fathom it. But from the other side, all I see are people creating their own meanings, religious or otherwise. It's all intrinsic.

So, like, with losing someone, the process of grief and moving on is nearly identical. Some may argue that as an atheist you don't think you'll see loved ones again, and that's true. But think about how everyone and anyone deals with loss. We regret what we didn't say to them, how we treated them, miss them, etc. But if you truly knew you were going to see them again - in eternal heaven, no less! - these things wouldn't gnaw at us. I'm not saying religious people don't believe they'll see loved ones again...many, probably most, do. But for practical purposes, the act of grief and the reasons behind it are identical, as are the emotional obstacles you need to overcome.

Originally posted by The Renegade
I still continued to go to church after I stepped out of the realm of belief because I had an abusive mother who gave me the option (if you want to use that term) to go to church or be kicked out onto the street.

Ouch; sorry to hear that.

To this day, I still cannot understand the concept of forcing other people to follow a religion. If they're going through the motions just for the benefit of someone/thing other than themselves, they're not actually practicing the religion.

Originally posted by Digi
This isn't your intent, but this question can be tricky to deal with because it's not far from the less informed questions of "How do atheists {insert thing}?" Such lines of questioning often presume that there is one universal substitute for atheists, or it's presented in a slightly accusatory manner as if there can't be an acceptably comforting substitute outside a religious context.

Again, I realize this isn't your intent. But it could be read by others as such. So I'm just hedging my response here.

For myself, I can't really describe a profound difference. The coping mechanisms for grief are intrinsic and fairly common throughout humanity. That some people tend to ascribe them to religious reasoning is just window dressing. The internal process is the same or very similar. It's the same when people ask how you find meaning outside of religion. Some legitimately can't fathom it. But from the other side, all I see are people creating their own meanings, religious or otherwise. It's all intrinsic.

So, like, with losing someone, the process of grief and moving on is nearly identical. Some may argue that as an atheist you don't think you'll see loved ones again, and that's true. But think about how everyone and anyone deals with loss. We regret what we didn't say to them, how we treated them, miss them, etc. But if you truly knew you were going to see them again - in eternal heaven, no less! - these things wouldn't gnaw at us. I'm not saying religious people don't believe they'll see loved ones again...many, probably most, do. But for practical purposes, the act of grief and the reasons behind it are identical, as are the emotional obstacles you need to overcome.

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness until the age of 13. My Dad was an elder in our congregation in Brooklyn and went to Bethel before our move to California. I had questions early on about the teachings the JW's espoused, so it was always there in the back of my mind even in childhood, primarily because of the "My Book of Bible Stories" book which is given to children. I was raised reading that book all through childhood and the stories of Job, Joseph, Lot, Noah, Abraham, and Samson just didn't make sense to me, or the concept of a "chosen people" and the '144,000' when Jehovah created everyone and should love and protect everyone. Eventually my Dad was "dis-fellowshipped" from the congregation because of his alcoholism and my parents divorced, and my Mom (who had custody of us) began practicing a more mainstream version of Christianity (Baptist), at least for a time. Due to some domestic issues I wound up in the custody of my Dad a few years later after being homeless during my sophmore year (long, sad story) and through friends I met at my new high school I began attending a Pentacostal Church in Berkeley. This is where I was exposed to the 'Baptisms of the Holy Spirit' and the speaking in tongues part of religion. I went along with it for a time. I even thought I'd actually felt something on an occasion and spoke in a tongue (being coached by church members to chant "Jesus" with all I could muster to the point of being lightheaded and jittery, and then breaking down in tears from the feelings of hysteria and euphoria of releasing years of pent up anguish). Through it all, though, my rational mind would always reassert itself and question it. From the things that were actually in the Bible to how if I was actually being bestowed with the grace of a supernatural power why was it that within moments of sitting down and collecting myself my friends and I were right back to checking out the sexy women in the same church which was filled with the grace of God. The clincher for me was when I attended another 'Revival' Church that my Mom was attending in Pittsburg while visiting from college and the Pastor of her church was also baptizing people with the "Holy Ghost" via this vial of holy oil. I went up before the Church to receive this blessing and this woman placed an oil covered hand on my forehead and said some prayers and recited some scriptures as the whole church was hollering and singing and the choir was going ham, and I felt nothing. Absolutely nothing. Then the Pastor leaned in to me and whispered "Lay on the floor", which I did, right in the front of the Church with all the other members who had come forward for this baptism lying on the ground, some convulsing, others crying, some running up and down the aisles. I laid there, greasy handprint on my face, with my eyes closed pretending to have received this 'gift' and then made the mistake of opening my eyes for a moment and made eye contact with a young boy of like 6 or 7 who saw me and smiled, then tried to tug on his Mom and tell her that I'd opened my eyes and his Mom just hushed him and told him to pay attention. At that moment the realization that it was a sham and indoctrination just hit me like a kick in the chest, and I felt like crap for playing a part in the act which this young kid was being led to believe was real. The rest is a bunch of book reading and philosophy and history courses and coming to the position that there's nothing supporting the existence of anything supernatural, whether related to Religion or not, and the acquisition of knowledge.

Originally posted by Mindship
Thanks for your response and not reading more into my query. May I ask: have you personally gone through such a loss? I got an impression from how you worded things that you haven't, and I was hoping to hear from someone who has. Otherwise, one's perspective on profound loss, however well-considered, is more of an intellectual assessment, even for die-hard Bible thumpers.

It depends on where you draw that line. I lost a grandmother recently. Her last years weren't pleasant, so the actual end was as much a blessing as a hardship. But we were close, and there was still a grieving process. So yes, I have personal experience on both sides, per se. Losing my grandmother wasn't nearly as hard as some other losses, but I feel like part of that was just that I'm a mature adult now. Regardless of religion (or lack thereof), I wasn't emotionally prepared for certain losses earlier in life. But it had more to due with age and experience than religion.

My explanations tend to sound a bit academic, though, whether or not they're personal or simply intellectual.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness until the age of 13. My Dad was an elder in our congregation in Brooklyn and went to Bethel before our move to California. I had questions early on about the teachings the JW's espoused, so it was always there in the back of my mind even in childhood, primarily because of the "My Book of Bible Stories" book which is given to children. I was raised reading that book all through childhood and the stories of Job, Joseph, Lot, Noah, Abraham, and Samson just didn't make sense to me, or the concept of a "chosen people" and the '144,000' when Jehovah created everyone and should love and protect everyone. Eventually my Dad was "dis-fellowshipped" from the congregation because of his alcoholism and my parents divorced, and my Mom (who had custody of us) began practicing a more mainstream version of Christianity (Baptist), at least for a time. Due to some domestic issues I wound up in the custody of my Dad a few years later after being homeless during my sophmore year (long, sad story) and through friends I met at my new high school I began attending a Pentacostal Church in Berkeley. This is where I was exposed to the 'Baptisms of the Holy Spirit' and the speaking in tongues part of religion. I went along with it for a time. I even thought I'd actually felt something on an occasion and spoke in a tongue (being coached by church members to chant "Jesus" with all I could muster to the point of being lightheaded and jittery, and then breaking down in tears from the feelings of hysteria and euphoria of releasing years of pent up anguish). Through it all, though, my rational mind would always reassert itself and question it. From the things that were actually in the Bible to how if I was actually being bestowed with the grace of a supernatural power why was it that within moments of sitting down and collecting myself my friends and I were right back to checking out the sexy women in the same church which was filled with the grace of God. The clincher for me was when I attended another 'Revival' Church that my Mom was attending in Pittsburg while visiting from college and the Pastor of her church was also baptizing people with the "Holy Ghost" via this vial of holy oil. I went up before the Church to receive this blessing and this woman placed an oil covered hand on my forehead and said some prayers and recited some scriptures as the whole church was hollering and singing and the choir was going ham, and I felt nothing. Absolutely nothing. Then the Pastor leaned in to me and whispered "Lay on the floor", which I did, right in the front of the Church with all the other members who had come forward for this baptism lying on the ground, some convulsing, others crying, some running up and down the aisles. I laid there, greasy handprint on my face, with my eyes closed pretending to have received this 'gift' and then made the mistake of opening my eyes for a moment and made eye contact with a young boy of like 6 or 7 who saw me and smiled, then tried to tug on his Mom and tell her that I'd opened my eyes and his Mom just hushed him and told him to pay attention. At that moment the realization that it was a sham and indoctrination just hit me like a kick in the chest, and I felt like crap for playing a part in the act which this young kid was being led to believe was real. The rest is a bunch of book reading and philosophy and history courses and coming to the position that there's nothing supporting the existence of anything supernatural, whether related to Religion or not, and the acquisition of knowledge.

Wow. Fascinating journey, dude.

Originally posted by Mindship
This prompts me to ask: Are there any atheists here who have had similar, profound losses? What got you through your grief? Family? Friends? If so, were they also atheists? What did you find yourself saying/thinking, especially when by yourself? I'm genuinely curious.

Originally posted by Digi
It depends on where you draw that line. I lost a grandmother recently. Her last years weren't pleasant, so the actual end was as much a blessing as a hardship. But we were close, and there was still a grieving process. So yes, I have personal experience on both sides, per se. Losing my grandmother wasn't nearly as hard as some other losses, but I feel like part of that was just that I'm a mature adult now. Regardless of religion (or lack thereof), I wasn't emotionally prepared for certain losses earlier in life. But it had more to due with age and experience than religion.

My condolences regarding your grandmother.

I lost my father (heart attack @ 52) almost 30 yrs ago, and it hit me hard. More recently (10 yrs ago), I lost a younger brother (he was 47); and my mother-in-law is gone almost 2 years now (she was 87). Regarding these two last, respective losses, both myself and my wife were not as badly hit as when I lost my dad. Not only were we older, but their last years were also not pleasant, so yeah, blessing as much as a loss.

Originally posted by red g jacks
my father died of cancer in 2010. my family is religious so there was a priest there and all that when he died, and they seemed to get something out of it at least. i didn't get anything out of it but i was glad they did. the grief question... i am not sure really. i was the one who lived with him and watched him go through the process of dying so by the time it came i was ready for it to be over and done with. my father was too so i don't feel bad in saying that.

*group hug*

Originally posted by Mindship

Thanks for sharing. Sorry for your loss.

*group hug*

What do you think you have gotten out of these anecdotes?

Originally posted by Bardock42
What do you think you have gotten out of these anecdotes?

Fuel for his tear-driven ambitions?

131

Originally posted by Bardock42
What do you think you have gotten out of these anecdotes?

Originally posted by Digi
Fuel for his tear-driven ambitions?

131

Originally posted by red g jacks
no. my question is.... if jesus is a divine being, why do you think that means he came to america?

I still think you're question is malformed and is unanswerable.

If you asked, "If Jesus really was a diving being, why would He not visit all lands, as His sacred text says he did?" Then I would answer, "I agree: He probably would if the mythoi surrounding His character are mostly true."

which sacred text are you referring to? i don't think my question is unanswerable at all.. i think you're doing a pretty good job of not answering it though.

Originally posted by Digi
Wow. Fascinating journey, dude.

My life's been 'eventful'.

Originally posted by red g jacks
which sacred text are you referring to? i don't think my question is unanswerable at all.. i think you're doing a pretty good job of not answering it though.

I dunno, man, you seem to be being vague, on purpose, and you're disregarding some key information that would have answered your questions, already.

Here, I'll make a list for you that will answer any and all questions for you:

1. I'm agnostic, first and foremost. I don't know if anything related to the the divine is true or not. If asked about religious beliefs, I will always answer, "if x is true, then y would have to be true." You will always get answers in that format because, guess what? I don't know nor will I ever claim to know.

2. I identify as Mormon.

Any questions you ask about my beliefs or supposed beliefs can be directly answered by 1 of those 2 points.

What do you think a Mormon would answer to your question about religious texts? If you don't know, google search what religious texts Mormons use.

Edit - Perhaps you're not very familiar with Christianity and you genuinely do not know the part where Jesus said ,"...other sheep have I not of this fold..."?

http://biblehub.com/john/10-16.htm

Since I identify as Mormon, it should be obvious that the Mormon belief system centers around this very idea/concept...which you asked me about. It is not true if Jesus was just a man and not divine. It was true if Jesus was divine. That should be obvious. You should not have any more questions about that because that's a very obvious answer. "If God is God then God is God." That's the answer I gave you. And you're asking things like, "If God is God, then why do you believe he is God?"