Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm not doubting that sidious exceeds vitiate's firepower...alone. He's not beating the combined might of Vitiate and Malgus, IMO.
I'm saying Palpatine is well capable of removing Malgus before he even becomes a factor.
No, he's not. This isn't maul-level Deceived Malgus here. This is the Emperor Malgus that brought a strike team comprised of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in the galaxy to their knees with lightning, blasted their asses with TK, and then of course there's his force maelstrom to boot. Plus he's backed up by, y'know, Vitiate, who just so happens to be arguably the most powerful Sith there is sans Palpatine himself. Palpatine isn't KO'ing peak Malgus with such impunity.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yep. Not a single noteworthy thing about Jadus except people claiming something. That's not a feat.
Sure, that seems legit. (Tempest, if you're reading this, that was sarcasm. Just so you know.)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's not. Also, just because Malgus is in Vader's tier, that doesn't mean that he's as strong as Vader.
I know, but he is. And it should allow him to content for a while. Dooku contended with Yoda in lightsabers. And Revan contended with Vitiate in the Force. Malgus can survive for a time. With Vitiate by his side, they can win.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Name a single Jadus "feat" that puts him anywhere near Sidious. In fact, name a Jadus feat period that puts him close to anyone noteworthy. Besides, a tier is a ton of power. A tier is the difference between a fight and being blitzed.
The Dominator.
And no, not really. A person on a tier below can contend with someone above for a while. Ventress isn't on Dooku's level, yet he didn't blitz her, did he? There are countless examples of an outmatched character going down swinging without embarrassing themselves.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You just responded to a post from me that wasn't even directed at you (lol). You should at least care about contradicting yourself.I'm sure it's relaxing because with me, when you make a claim, I ask you to back it up, which you never can.
Let's see if you can at least provide what Freshest is asking from you.
That doesn't imply that I care about you thinking Sidious>>>>>Vitiate, just that I saw the opportunity to ruffle your hair a bit.
I never try. Theres no point going through this shit with you.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
So you think Sidious can simply toss Emperor Malgus aside while also fending off Vitiate's firepower? Not seeing it. Even if Vitiate weren't here, I'm not sure if Sidious could ragdoll peak Malgus.
Sidious has tanked a force attack from Marek, who had entered a state of oneness with the force, and all but destroyed Palpatine's tower on the death star, which left him dead and Palpatine still standing. This thread has Sidious on a DS nexus, and a dying Sidious shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery, causing it to disintegrate on contact with his head, while on a nexus. Imagine the durability of Sidious at full power while on a powerful nexus as this one. I'm not seeing what Vitiate's lightning would do to him.
As far as speed goes, I won't suggest that Sidious will speed blitz them, but he has far greater speed feats then anyone on this team, so distancing himself from them shouldn't be an issue. And while at a distance, if he were to unleash a force storm on them, what exactly could they do to stop it?
Of course Sidious has never utilized this attack on any opponent in direct combat, but if we limit feats to what the characters have only been shown to utilize mid-combat, Vitiate doesn't have much to go on. At least with Palpatine's storms, I could make a pretty solid case that if he wanted to, he could use it in combat.
BTW, in your opinion, how close would you place Vitiate to Palpatine in force power?
Originally posted by Nephthys
That doesn't imply that I care about you thinking Sidious>>>>>Vitiate, just that I saw the opportunity to ruffle your hair a bit.I never try. Theres no point going through this shit with you.
I wasn't talking about this thread.
You didn't ruffle my hair, it just gave me a reason to remind you of the fact that you can't prove Vitiate comes close to Sidious.
I don't mind if people want to believe Vitiate is close to Sidious, but if I make an argument proving otherwise, unless you can refute it then you have no business criticizing it. Sidious has far superior feats and accolades. It is a fact that a strict comparison between them both, Palpatine beats him pretty solidly.
I don't get mad at people viewing Vitiate as Palpatine's peer, I'm just not convinced how. Tempest views them as peers. I'm sure he has a reason why he wants to believe it, which I respect. I may not understand how, but I respect it. I doubt it's something he could prove (though if he could I wouldn't mind hearing him or anyone else out). Just like I have opinions that I'm unable to prove. The fact remains, though, as far as what we know about both characters, Palpatine beats Vitiate solidly. Getting mad about it, is silly and useless.
Considering we haven't seen the full extent of Vitiate's power with lightning (specifically at full power in the Dark Temple,) I'm not too sure. I have a hunch that his maximum output storm would prove to be very difficult to block, especially considering how on a weaker nexus it easily and instantaneously overwhelmed Revan's tutaminis defenses, Revan having immense raw power and mastery in this aspect (easily blocking Nyriss's lightning storm which could ash very powerful beings.) Then of course off nexus he destroyed 4 of the most powerful jedi in the galaxy, ultimately obliterating their lightsabers and rendering them unconscious while not actively seeking to kill them. Add Emperor Malgus into this? It's gonna be a rough fight.
I hadn't considered that this was DE Sidious. I'm not sure about his force storm, and I still don't like his chances in this fight. The united efforts of both Malgus and Vitiate are those which very few could hope to overcome.
In regards to where I place Vitiate compared to Palpatine in force power, I place them pretty close. Yeah, even DE Palpatine. While you can say that Palpatine's force storm is infinitely beyond anything we've seen from Vitiate, I don't see you (or really anyone, for that matter) using the scale argument with Nihilus either. Reallistically, DE Palpatine isn't that much more powerful than ROTS Palpatine, it's just that DE Palpatine was more masterful, which is what he needed to harness the force storm. In terms of what they've combatively shown in terms of force powers though, I don't see Sidious as stompingly superior.
This isn't DE Sidious. At least, the OP hasn't said it is.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I wasn't talking about this thread.You didn't ruffle my hair, it just gave me a reason to remind you of the fact that you can't prove Vitiate comes close to Sidious.
I don't mind if people want to believe Vitiate is close to Sidious, but if I make an argument proving otherwise, unless you can refute it then you have no business criticizing it. Sidious has far superior feats and accolades. It is a fact that a strict comparison between them both, Palpatine beats him pretty solidly.
I don't get mad at people viewing Vitiate as Palpatine's peer, I'm just not convinced how. Tempest views them as peers. I'm sure he has a reason why he wants to believe it, which I respect. I may not understand how, but I respect it. I doubt it's something he could prove (though if he could I wouldn't mind hearing him or anyone else out). Just like I have opinions that I'm unable to prove. The fact remains, though, as far as what we know about both characters, Palpatine beats Vitiate solidly. Getting mad about it, is silly and useless.
Yeah, its far more sensible to get mad about someone saying Revan>Dooku.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Considering we haven't seen the full extent of Vitiate's power with lightning (specifically at full power in the Dark Temple,) I'm not too sure. I have a hunch that his maximum output storm would prove to be very difficult to block, especially considering how on a weaker nexus it easily and instantaneously overwhelmed Revan's tutaminis defenses, Revan having immense raw power and mastery in this aspect (easily blocking Nyriss's lightning storm which could ash very powerful beings.) Then of course off nexus he destroyed 4 of the most powerful jedi in the galaxy, ultimately obliterating their lightsabers and rendering them unconscious while not actively seeking to kill them. Add Emperor Malgus into this? It's gonna be a rough fight.I hadn't considered that this was DE Sidious. I'm not sure about his force storm, and I still don't like his chances in this fight. The united efforts of both Malgus and Vitiate are those which very few could hope to overcome.
In regards to where I place Vitiate compared to Palpatine in force power, I place them pretty close. Yeah, even DE Palpatine. While you can say that Palpatine's force storm is infinitely beyond anything we've seen from Vitiate, I don't see you (or really anyone, for that matter) using the scale argument with Nihilus either. Reallistically, DE Palpatine isn't that much more powerful than ROTS Palpatine, it's just that DE Palpatine was more masterful, which is what he needed to harness the force storm. In terms of what they've combatively shown in terms of force powers though, I don't see Sidious as stompingly superior.
We have a pretty good idea of the raw output of Vitiate's lightning. It took 20 seconds worth of attack plus another charged attack just to render his opponents unconscious. Perhaps if he attacked after they were rendered unconscious, he could have killed them all. Clearly if he could put more power in his lightning, he would have no need to unleash another charged attack just to overpower the saber defenses of two jedi. So, no, I'm not going to assume his lightning is that much more potent than what he produced against the strike team, considering the amount of attack required in that confrontation. That's not the logic you used with Dooku not to long ago. You declared that disintegration was beyond his out put of power, despite the fact that a single gout, from one hand, was sufficient to instantly KO Bulq, who is possibly one of the strongest jedi of his time.
As far as your suggestion that Vitiate's lightning would be more powerful on a nexus, well Sidious will also be benefiting from this nexus, and as I mentioned earlier, Sidious has tanked far more destructive power than what Vitiate's lightning is capable of producing, and Palpatine did so while off a nexus. A dying Palpatine's durability on a nexus was such that a ton of machinery completely shattered on impact with his head. Still not seeing what they could do to harm him. Maybe you can accuse me of overrating him, but, hey, I'm going by showings just like you are for Vitiate, and I'm not going to ignore them to please anyone.
If you're able to make a solid case for Nihilus being capable of giga-drain mid-combat, I would have no problem accepting that as long as it don't contradict what we see onscreen during combat. Regarding Palpatine's storm, we have sources that detail the ease in which he can summon them, on top of seeing him produce one instantly after Luke cut his hand off. He's also shown the capability of producing smaller versions and controlling them from a distance of light years. Logically, controlling them from closer range would require far less effort. In fact, before he had fully mastered his ability with them, he opened a small one in the reactor shaft that Vader threw him in to teleport his spirit. There is absolutely nothing to contradict the idea of him being able to use a small one on his opponents in combat if he distances himself, and given that his speed is beyond theirs, he is more than capable of distancing himself. I have every reason to believe he could use them in combat, unless you can give a reason as to why he wouldn't be able to.
Why would you assume we use ROTS Sidious. When we have a thread with Kenobi, do we use his AOTC version; or when we use Maul, do we use his TPM version? Regardless, yes Palpatine has shown far greater feats of durability, wider range of powers, and has produced greater displays of raw power as of DE. Regardless of whether or not greater mastery allowed him to harness and unleash more power, he's still an overall more powerful force user.
Regardless, even as of ROTS, Sidious is quite solidly above Vitiate in terms of TK. Sidious has easily dominated both Maul and Savage simultaneously while toying with them, and Dooku from a distance of light years. Dooku himself has dominated other powerful force users who could shatter the ground with force pushes (Voss), crush assassin droids, push through shielded destroyer droids, use TK on a molecular lever to cause a tidal wave (Kenobi), nearly crush the hearts of other powerful jedi, collapse huge boulders from cave ceilings, cause avalanches (Ventress). Maul has force choked Kenobi while fighting off another jedi. Just by getting angry, Savage consistently hurls force users around. As far as lightning, I think I made a case for Sidious lightning being superior to Vitiate's (disintegrating sith spawn, KOing Yoda level force users with short blasts, nearly overpowering the saber defense of Windu, while not even trying to defeat Windu), which was overlooked. Speed, Sidious can blitz top jedi of his era, but of course titles like that only mean something when they are given to TOR characters. In fact, I haven't seen anyone give a speed feat that suggests Vitiate or Malgus are above jedi Palpatine can easily blitz. All I see are arguments like "well no they are powerful so that means they are fast and can keep up." Well if power determines one's speed, then logically being three of the jedi's greatest swordsmen would require them to be fast by jedi standards, which would in turn indicate that they are powerful force users as well. Hell, Tiin was stated as having one of the strongest force connections of his time (a time Lucas refers to as the jedi in their prime), and was implied to being a peer of Windu in terms of raw power, yet we seen what that did for him when confronting Sidious. So, again, I'm generous for the most part, but I'm not going out of my way entirely to please the TOR fans. Sidious is my favorite character, and, no, I've seen absolutely nothing from Vitiate to suggest he'd be a challenge in combat. At most he'd stall Sidious, and that's only if Sidious allows Vitiate to attack with his powers first before he attacks with his. I'd be lying if I said I thought Vitiate is close to ROTS Sidious. One good lightning showing doesn't make me believe Vitiate approaches ROTS Sidious in combat. Dooku has defeated Ventress + 2 other nightsisters with a one 10 second lightning attack while drugged, and has KO'd Bulq with a short one handed lightning attack, and he doesn't even approach Sidious in that area.
Neph,
I never got mad at the claim that Revan > Dooku, I countered it. I stated that I viewed them as peers, with Dooku being better.
It was when I stated that Revan's meteor feat isn't any more impressive than a particular TK feat performed by a force user who was ragdolled by Dooku that people, such as yourself, started getting mad.