Originally posted by Greatest I am
I agree but if not meant as I speculated, what doe it mean.Bear in mind that nowhere in the story or bible is it's loss ever bemoaned.
It seems that even the biblical writers did not believe it to be an important part of the story.
Thoughts?
Regards
DL
I think it is an artifact. I have read that the serpent was also an artifact. What I mean is that the original story was written in context of an older religion that is now all but gone.
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Where is this shown in scriptures?Further, how is, as God says in the narrative, A & E have become as Gods, knowing good and evil, dying spiritually.
That quote from God says they brought life to their spiritual thinking and not death as you indicate.
Regards
DL
"And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,"
Hebrews 9:27
this basically solved the question won't the garden be overpopulated if Adam and Eve never ate the forbidden fruit... from the start, God appointed men to die, and that's the reason he created man from the dust of the ground of earth... once a person dies, the flesh/dust returns to earth...
"And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
Ecclesiastes 12:7
so when Adam died (physically) after living for 930 years, it's not because of eating the forbidden fruit... Adam and Eve's death by eating the forbidden fruit is spiritual because they transgressed God's law, they committed sin... and the wage of sin is death (Romans 6:23), that death is spiritual - you get alienated from the life of God:
"They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;"
Ephesians 4:18
when you get alienated from the life of God, you die... spiritually... and to prove that:
"But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives."
I Timothy 5:6
a person can be considered "dead" (spiritually) even if he is still living (physically)...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think it is an artifact. I have read that the serpent was also an artifact. What I mean is that the original story was written in context of an older religion that is now all but gone.
No argument. It all came from Sumer and Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C3%BBma_Eli%C5%A1
Regards
DL
Originally posted by dyajeep
"And just as [b]it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,"
Hebrews 9:27this basically solved the question won't the garden be overpopulated if Adam and Eve never ate the forbidden fruit... from the start, God appointed men to die, and that's the reason he created man from the dust of the ground of earth... once a person dies, the flesh/dust returns to earth...
"And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
Ecclesiastes 12:7so when Adam died (physically) after living for 930 years, it's not because of eating the forbidden fruit... Adam and Eve's death by eating the forbidden fruit is spiritual because they transgressed God's law, they committed sin... and the wage of sin is death (Romans 6:23), that death is spiritual - you get alienated from the life of God:
"They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;"
Ephesians 4:18when you get alienated from the life of God, you die... spiritually... and to prove that:
"But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives."
I Timothy 5:6a person can be considered "dead" (spiritually) even if he is still living (physically)... [/B]
Sin requires intent to do evil.
A & E could not sin as they could not have evil intent as they had no knowledge of what evil was as they had yet to eat of it.
You will note that the Jews who wrote the story did not see a fall in Eden but an elevation.
http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php
A & E, as God said, became as Gods in the knowing of good and evil and had their eyes opened.
Seems you think man is better without a moral sense and with their eyes closed.
Sin was impossible for A & E so what is sinful about becoming as Gods.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Sin requires intent to do evil.A & E could not sin as they could not have evil intent as they had no knowledge of what evil was as they had yet to eat of it.
i beg to disagree... Adam and Eve have knowledge, and they transgressed God's commandment to them in particular...
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
I John 3:4
"But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me."
Hosea 6:7
Originally posted by dyajeep
i beg to disagree... Adam and Eve have knowledge, and they transgressed God's commandment to them in particular..."Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for [b]sin is the transgression of the law
."
I John 3:4"But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me."
Hosea 6:7 [/B]
So following scriptures that tell us to be as perfect as God is transgression against God.
Ignoring a command to basically remains as bright as bricks is what you recommend.
You have followed God's command and are as bright as a brick.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Greatest I am
So following scriptures that tell us to be as perfect as God is transgression against God.Ignoring a command to basically remains as bright as bricks is what you recommend.
You have followed God's command and are as bright as a brick.
Regards
DL
nope, you're contradicting things that should not be... all it takes is a little common sense... i don't think you even know the meaning of "perfect" in the Bible...
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48
how can you be perfect?
"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
So that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:44-48
that's what being perfect is, not your pre-conceived idea...
Originally posted by Greatest I am
So following scriptures that tell us to be as perfect as God is transgression against God.Ignoring a command to basically remains as bright as bricks is what you recommend.
You have followed God's command and are as bright as a brick.
Regards
DL
People follow whatever scriptures support their beliefs, and excuse away the rest.
Originally posted by Bentley
Also keep in mind that not every christian denomination reads the Bible in the same way, nor gives the Bible the same weight when it comes to settling their beliefs.The christian Bible is not a sacred aspect of God like the Coran is meant to be on Islam.
I was born as a fundamentalist Christian, and they viewed the bible as the word of God. I would think that would be equivalent to a sacred aspect of God.
I guess it all depends of interpretation.
the Bible contains words of God, yes... but it also contains words of satan, words of angels, words of demons, words of good people, words of bad people...
it is wrong to generalize that the Bible is THE word of God...
true followers of Christ obey what's written in the Bible as teachings of Jesus, not the other way around... false christians find Bible verses that confirm to their own teaching...
even Saint John warned the brethren not to believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God... because there are many false prophets twisting the teachings of Jesus (I John 4:1)... heck, there are people pretending to be Christ themselves...
Originally posted by dyajeep
nope, you're contradicting things that should not be... all it takes is a little common sense... i don't think you even know the meaning of "perfect" in the Bible..."You, therefore, must [b]be perfect
, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48how can you be perfect?
"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
So that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:44-48that's what being perfect is, not your pre-conceived idea... [/B]
Love your enemy is a really stupid idea.
If you walk in on two brutes raping your wife and you happen to have a gun. Will you love your enemy or shoot two that you say you love?
Or will you turn the other cheek and offer them your daughter for their next.
Are you sure you want to love your enemy and turn the other cheek?
Do think about the stupid things you quote.
Do you think the Jews loved the S. S. while walking into the ovens?
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Bentley
Also keep in mind that not every christian denomination reads the Bible in the same way, nor gives the Bible the same weight when it comes to settling their beliefs.The christian Bible is not a sacred aspect of God like the Coran is meant to be on Islam.
I agree to a point.
All who fly the cross must have a literal belief in Jesus or they would not idolize him or the bible and they would not have taken their immoral tenet to heart.
I like to drop this in their lap when I speak to a Jesus as whipping boy idol.
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.
Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
As above so below.
If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?
Perhaps like being man enough to step up to your own demands for a worthy sacrifice?
That is what a good God would do.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by dyajeep
the Bible contains words of God, yes... but it also contains words of satan, words of angels, words of demons, words of good people, words of bad people...it is wrong to generalize that the Bible is THE word of God...
true followers of Christ obey what's written in the Bible as teachings of Jesus, not the other way around... false christians find Bible verses that confirm to their own teaching...
even Saint John warned the brethren not to believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God... because there are many false prophets twisting the teachings of Jesus (I John 4:1)... heck, there are people pretending to be Christ themselves...
And that is quite good depending on the particular teaching you follow as the bible has more than 1 Jesus.
The esoteric Jesus wants us to be Christ.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
If you wish freedom of thinking instead of sheepish non-thinking then listen up. Jesus will teach you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D
The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded
This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y
When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I was born as a fundamentalist Christian, and they viewed the bible as the word of God. I would think that would be equivalent to a sacred aspect of God.I guess it all depends of interpretation.
I was aware that kind of reading of the Bible existed, but it's rather uncommon as far as Christian practices go and I didn't know anyone who practiced such belief. Unrelated question, weren't you also catholic at some point?
Personally I'm not terribly attached to the idea of a Bible being an aspect of God. One of the main consolations I find in christian religion is that it's built upon failed and fragile men.
Originally posted by Bentley
I was aware that kind of reading of the Bible existed, but it's rather uncommon as far as Christian practices go and I didn't know anyone who practiced such belief. Unrelated question, weren't you also catholic at some point?Personally I'm not terribly attached to the idea of a Bible being an aspect of God. One of the main consolations I find in christian religion is that it's built upon failed and fragile men.
No I was never a Catholic.
All religions are built upon failed and fragile humans.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No I was never a Catholic.All religions are built upon failed and fragile humans.
All human religions you mean 😖hifty:
But in the other cases you're right, I just think that allowing a holy book that is beyond human nature kind of undermines that element of the practice.
Originally posted by Bentley
All human religions you mean 😖hifty:But in the other cases you're right, I just think that allowing a holy book that is beyond human nature kind of undermines that element of the practice.
No, all religions. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism to mane the most popular, but the list goes on. All of these and more religions were created by humans, and humans are fallible.
What is the other case? I fell like you are trying to exclude something.