Ash vs. Red

Okay, so I have seen this debate circulating around the internet repeatedly about which Pokemon trainer is superior, and there has never been a conclusive answer.

For this, the battles will be like those in Ash's anime (or like the Pokemon Origins episodes). Substitutions are allowed, but both lead with their starter Pokemon. Here are the teams given:

Ash:
1. Pikachu (X/Y moves)
2. Torterra
3. Charizard (I am going to assume Ash gains the mega evolving ability with Charizard, and give him the Mega Charizard Y evolution)
4. Greninja (assuming his Froakie evolves fully)
5. Infernape
6. Glalie

Red:
1. Charizard (holding Charizardite X)
2. Blastoise
3. Venusaur
4. Alakazam
5. Scizor
6. Electivire

Four Rounds:
1. Manga Versions face-off
2. Anime Ash vs. Origins Red
3. Manga Ash vs. Origins Red
4. Anime Ash vs. Manga Red

Who wins this battle for the ultimate trainer?

*don't bring up that Ash never won a legitimate Pokemon League, because his style of Pokemon League is completely different from what Red experienced. Ash also should have won the Sinnoh League had it not been for the ******* cheater Tobias.

Red. Because Ash never wins.

Red stomps.

Edit: Don't know about manga Ash though so can't comment on that.

Manga ash could have won the Indigo League, but his Charizard almost killed Ritchie's and, to prevent this, he forfeited.

As for anime Ash never winning, he won in the orange islands, which were set up a lot like a game's Elite Four, and he cleared the Battle Frontier in Kanto, defeating an Articuno and the Regi-Trio (just a few examples). Ash also seems to be very good at battling in unexpected ways to win from behind.
He placed top 16 in the indigo league, top 8 in the Silver Conference, Hoenn League, and Unova, and top 4 of the Sinnoh League where he lost to Tobias, a guy who swept almost every match using only a Darkrai; the reason I said he swept almost every match is because Ash KO'ed that Darkrai in his match (after using 4 pokemon) then Tobias uses a Latios, who Ash's Pikachu ties with for the final match. Ash easily could have won the Sinnoh League had it not been for this talentless hack.

Ashes problem is he doesn't evolve his pokemon.

Ash's problem is that he's shit and uses shit pokemon.

Red wins because he's a baws.

Red, by a nautical mile, because he's the best... like no one ever was.

Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
Ashes problem is he doesn't evolve his pokemon.

Actually, Ash has far more fully evolved pokemon than those that aren't.

For those who say that Ash doesn't evolve his pokemon, here is a list of all his pokemon (not counting XY because those pokemon could still evolve).
Just a list of Ash's fully evolved pokemon:
Charizard
Pidgeot
Sceptile
Donphan
Glalie
Swellow
Infernape
Torterra
Snorlax (granted it wasn't an evolved form when he caught it)
Staraptor
Unfezant
Kingler
Muk
Krookodile
Gliscor
Leavanny
Butterfree
Primeape
Noctowl (Shiny no less)
Beedrill (Johto Bug Catching Contest but he gave it to Casey)

Now for those that are in their middle evolution:
Quilava
Pignite
Palpitoad
Boldore
Bayleef
Pikachu

Now those that haven't evolved but can:
Squirtle
Bulbasaur
Totodile
Corphish
Snivy
Oshawatt
Buizel
Gible
Scraggy

Now those that can't evolve:
Torkoal
Tauros
Heracross
Lapras

Now, knowing this, tell me again how Ash never evolves his Pokemon.

Who gives a f**k?

His provided line-up is all that matters, and he gets f**king cleaned regardless.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
Who gives a f**k?

His provided line-up is all that matters, and he gets f**king cleaned regardless.

Just letting people know where they are incorrect. But either way, I don't think he gets cleaned, as you predict, and people here underestimate Ash severely. I feel that Ash is just as strong as Red, people just need to realize that.

Originally posted by jmoul
Just letting people know where they are incorrect. But either way, I don't think he gets cleaned, as you predict, and people here underestimate Ash severely. I feel that Ash is just as strong as Red, people just need to realize that.

I'm not underestimating him. He's just noticeably less competent than Red, and from what I can tell, he has a seemingly less advantageous line-up.

Edit: I just noticed the rounds involving manga versions. I admittedly have no knowledge on them, and for all I know, they could be on completely different performance levels.

In the manga, they talk about how the main characters for the first 2 gens (Red/Blue/Green/Yellow/Silver/Gold/Crystal) each has a special talent that makes them exceptional. Red is battling.

Ash I think, if he made a dream-team of all his best pokemon he could win, his Pikachu and Charizard are exceptional examples of their types and he has a good number of other strong pokemon, but his normal policy of starting from the bottom (+ Pikachu) means no individual team he's had would stand up to Red's team.