TCWs Luminara and Barriss vs. TPM Maul

Originally posted by ILS
Kicking Aayla Secura off of her feet whilst dueling someone who is several tiers above both Luminara and Barriss is a laughable example? Nah man.

Considering the duel lasted all of 10 seconds and this is TPM Maul, yes its irrelevant. And if we want to go with outliers, Barriss contended with Skywalker.

I mean, great, she is a master of Soresu. How does that prevent her from being separated from Barriss? Jinn is on-par or superior to Luminara, and Kenobi at this time is probably superior to Barriss or at the very least in her ballpark, and they have superior synergy to the pair in this thread as well. Maul was anticipating their attacks with ease and leading them around the battlefield at his own discretion. Why can't Maul just kick Barriss into unconsciousness or stun her long enough to get Luminara on her own and take her out? Luminara isn't invincible either, Ventress has found success against her with a kick that sent her flying, and Maul is at least as good a martial artist as Ventress with far greater striking power.

She's a master of Soresu, which means she'll last way longer than Jinn would even if they were separated. Considering Barriss' performance against Skywalker who outclasses Maul, I doubt she'll be rendered unconscious by a kick.

Originally posted by ILS
Barriss being able to copy Luminara move for move while killing droids has little to do with having perfect synergy in a duel. When you're dueling people as a duo you don't copy everything the other does or you get in their way. So really you haven't proven that they have perfect synergy, just that they use similar moves.

She wasn't copying, she was anticipating and making the same move. There was no delay.

And even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt that they had perfect synergy, it's not like that helped Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon, who at the very least match Barriss and Luminara as a duo.

Qui-Gon and Kenobi don't have the chops to match Unduli and Offee. Unduli was able to fight on par with Ventress (without in-depth perception) which is something even Kit Fisto could not do. The same Kit Fisto who moved too fast for AOTCs Kenobi to follow.

As for your little quip about me hating Maul. TPM Maul got his weapon cut in half by TPM Kenobi, who I doubt anyone would argue is superior to AOTCs Kenobi.

Considering the duel lasted all of 10 seconds and this is TPM Maul, yes its irrelevant. And if we want to go with outliers, Barriss contended with Skywalker.

She's a master of Soresu, which means she'll last way longer than Jinn would even if they were separated. Considering Barriss' performance against Skywalker who outclasses Maul, I doubt she'll be rendered unconscious by a kick.

Being a master of Soresu means jackshit without feats to back it up, and there is nothing to suggest Luminara is any better than Jinn. Both contended briefly with a tier 8 duelist with some disadvantages riding against them, although the difference is that Jinn lasted longer against a superior opponent (Maul) to the one Luminara was taken out by (Ventress).

Proof Anakin "outclasses" Maul? Barriss barely contended with him anyway, she was on the backfoot the whole time and Anakin wasn't even trying to kill her but instead subdue her.

She wasn't copying, she was anticipating and making the same move. There was no delay.

Qui-Gon and Kenobi don't have the chops to match Unduli and Offee.

Kenobi was good enough at this period in time to legitimately challenge Jinn in their sparring matches, meaning he was pretty close to Jinn himself, making him superior to Barriss, whose only claim to skill is being beaten while trying to run away from Anakin Skywalker.

Unduli was able to fight on par with Ventress (without in-depth perception)

which is something even Kit Fisto could not do.

The same Kit Fisto who moved too fast for AOTCs Kenobi to follow.

TPM Maul got his weapon cut in half by TPM Kenobi, who I doubt anyone would argue is superior to AOTCs Kenobi.

And this is still getting away from the point entirely, which is Barriss and Luminara being killed by Maul.

Originally posted by ILS
The duel's length is up for interpretation, actually, but nah, it's a more than usable example of Maul's ability to combat two people at the same time and do well. It's also not an outlier, nor is Barriss contending with Anakin.

Not really. It lasted two panels. And again irrelevant to this discussion as this is TPM Maul.

Being a master of Soresu means jackshit without feats to back it up, and there is nothing to suggest Luminara is any better than Jinn. Both contended briefly with a tier 8 duelist with some disadvantages riding against them, although the difference is that Jinn lasted longer against a superior opponent (Maul) to the one Luminara was taken out by (Ventress).

"Luminara had power that very few Jedi would
be able to parallel. Some say that she would easily
match the skills of fallen Jedi Master Count
Dooku."- Galaxy Guide

Also Luminara lasted longer than Jinn. She wasn't taken out by Ventress...Jinn was.

Proof Anakin "outclasses" Maul? Barriss barely contended with him anyway, she was on the backfoot the whole time and Anakin wasn't even trying to kill her but instead subdue her.

-Performance against Dooku
-Mace Windu's statements
-ROTS novel statements
-Classification as a level 9 duelist.

Didn't counter what I said, bro. Yes, she was copying, and copying someone has nothing to do with dueling synergy.

Yes it did...copying implies you need to see the person do it first.

Of course they do. Jinn has humbled Anoon Bondara in sparring matches, and Bondara was considered unparalleled by many during TPM and was one of the greatest warriors the Jedi had during TPM. Jinn has also been accoladed as being one of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi have ever produced, and being able to contend with Darth Maul for as long as he did is superior to anything Unduli has done.

Not really, I think fighting Ventress without depth perception is a superior feat.

Kenobi was good enough at this period in time to legitimately challenge Jinn in their sparring matches, meaning he was pretty close to Jinn himself, making him superior to Barriss, whose only claim to skill is being beaten while trying to run away from Anakin Skywalker.
Except she ate a pretty mean kick in the end which sent her flying, and her and Ahsoka were being given all they could handle as a duo. This isn't superior to Jinn holding his own against Maul for longer. The sore eye doesn't mean much considering Jedi can perceive others through the Force with better clarity than sight can ever grant you.

Do you have a quote for this? Even if that's true that's hardly that great a feat given that Kenobi would know all of Jinn's moves. Considering Skywalker is way above Maul at this point it most certainly is a great feat. Not saying Barriss

IIRC Ventress ambushed Fisto after studying his fighting style extensively, so.

She's still firmly above AOTCs Kenobi.

Who doesn't really have miraculous speed feats to begin with, but yeah it's a great speed feat for Fisto. And?

And? Kenobi was amped by Force Rage and was still stated as being "no match" for Maul. Saberstaff's are inherently vulnerable to being cut in half, so it's not really as much a slight on Maul's skill level as it is on his weapon's vulnerability. And even then you're using backwards logic - it's a feat for Kenobi, not a non-feat for Maul.

Yeah it is a feat for Kenobi. AOTCs Kenobi is superior to TPM Kenobi.

And this is still getting away from the point entirely, which is Barriss and Luminara being killed by Maul.

And let me summarize my points for you.

Ventress and Fisto moved faster than Kenobi could perceive as of AOTCs. Luminara on the other hand had no trouble perceiving Ventress even with a one eye handicap. Unless you think Kenobi's perception decreased between TPM and AOTCs, Ventress is faster than TPM Maul, as is Luminara. Luminara lone would give Maul a big challenge, throw in Barriss who was able to contend with a duelist a tier above Maul, and I think the duo has the advantage.

Not really. It lasted two panels. And again irrelevant to this discussion as this is TPM Maul.

Proof Maul's lightsaber skill improved after TPM?

"Luminara had power that very few Jedi would
be able to parallel. Some say that she would easily
match the skills of fallen Jedi Master Count
Dooku."- Galaxy Guide

Also Luminara lasted longer than Jinn. She wasn't taken out by Ventress...Jinn was.

Not really brah. Unduli was sent flying with a kick and then failed to defeat Ventress with back up. Doesn't put her above Jinn, at best it puts her on-par because of how similar it is to Jinn's contending with Maul.

-Performance against Dooku
-Mace Windu's statements
-ROTS novel statements
-Classification as a level 9 duelist.

Which were?

Which were?

Maul is generally on-par with Obi-Wan and Ventress, who are tier 8 duelists. That doesn't translate to being completely outclassed.

Yes it did...copying implies you need to see the person do it first.

Not really, I think fighting Ventress without depth perception is a superior feat.

Do you have a quote for this? Even if that's true that's hardly that great a feat given that Kenobi would know all of Jinn's moves.

"With a flash and a buzz, the lightsabers met in a raised cross. Both men were breathless, sweating from the exertion. This had been no lighthearted spar.

Obi-Wan looked up at his Master, his eyes bright and intense. It was clear that he had not actually won the match, but that he had stated his case firmly."

-The Threat Within

Considering Skywalker is way above Maul at this point it most certainly is a great feat.

She's still firmly above AOTCs Kenobi.

Yes he does, he moves faster than Kenobi can perceive.

Ventress and Fisto moved faster than Kenobi could perceive as of AOTCs. Luminara on the other hand had no trouble perceiving Ventress even with a one eye handicap.

nless you think Kenobi's perception decreased between TPM and AOTCs

Ventress is faster than TPM Maul, as is Luminara.

Luminara lone would give Maul a big challenge

throw in Barriss who was able to contend with a duelist a tier above Maul, and I think the duo has the advantage.

I feel you're kinda lowballing Barriss' performance against Anakin, ILS. But your point that Maul being able to incapacitate Barriss with a kick or whatever is definitely legit. Ahsoka kicked Barriss right in the gut in the first five seconds of their duel, and needless to say Maul is faster, stronger, and more skilled than Ahsoka, so he could totally wreck Barriss with physical strikes.

I'm not lowballing it, Barriss just isn't as good as Stark wants her to be unfortunately.

Originally posted by ILS
Yes but they had to cut how much content was shown in the comic opposed to what we would have seen on-screen, meaning the duel was longer than we saw on-panel, and there was time on-panel for the duel to progress. So it lasted long enough for it to not be irrelevant.

Occam's Razor, we're not going to assume the duel lasted several minutes.

Proof Maul's lightsaber skill improved after TPM?
Good power accolade, hasn't translated into feats. "Some" isn't a reliable source for detailing Unduli's skill with a saber. Some could be a padawan or a bartender.

His skill may not have improved, but his raw speed and power would most certainly would as that is just what happens when raw force power increases. Nice strawman, its from a source book not a novel's dialogue.

Not really brah. Unduli was sent flying with a kick and then failed to defeat Ventress with back up. Doesn't put her above Jinn, at best it puts her on-par because of how similar it is to Jinn's contending with Maul.

Being able to match Dooku lets Anakin "outclass" Maul? Nah. He's about one tier ahead in skill, that's all

Being in a different tier is the definition of outclassing.

Which were?

Which were?

"Mace laced his fingers together land
squeezed until his knuckles crackled like blasterfire. "Skywalker is
arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Maul is generally on-par with Obi-Wan and Ventress, who are tier 8 duelists. That doesn't translate to being completely outclassed.

Yes it does. Its blatantly stated the gap between 9 and 8 is massive

Copying implies they're doing the same thing, which they were, because Barriss copied what her Master taught her and now does it at the same time as her. And you still haven't properly countered my point on it having nothing to do with dueling synergy.

It does. Deflecting blaster bolts and striking down opponents is the same thing.

Okay lol
And Jinn would know all of Kenobi's moves. Knowledge alone doesn't completely remove room for competition, because there are other aspects of a duel that knowledge cannot remove, i.e tactical ingenuity, application of knowledge, physical stats ect. Quote:

Give me the source for Kenobi dueling on par with Jinn or concede that point.

Except Skywalker being "way above" Maul is your own fan-fiction.
Okay.

You've already conceded Skywalker being in a different tier than Maul.

I was referring to AotC Kenobi - not Fisto.
Kenobi could perceive them, but it was only as a blur IIRC, which isn't quite imperceptible. Luminara can perceive Ventress, yes.

A technicality. The point is Kenobi can barely react to them and he had no trouble reacting to Maul in TPM. So unless you have a source directly stating otherwise you'd do well to concede that point.

Nope, but I fail to see what your point is.
Nah, lol, Maul has better speed feats than both of them.
Eh, nah, Ventress landed a huge kick on her early on in their 1v1 fight, Maul would do the same except it'd be a more damaging kick.
Like I said, Barriss was on the backfoot the entire time against an Anakin who wasn't even trying to kill her, and that's all she has in terms of skill. Doesn't really put her above Aayla Secura, who has beaten Aurra Sing and contended with Quinlan Vos, who Maul knocked off her feet whilst dueling Windu, or TPM Kenobi who Maul kicked off his feet repeatedly while backed up by Jinn. Barriss has no durability feats to suggest she wouldn't be at least stunned by such blows, and given Maul's capacity for battle tactics and separating duos, I see no reason why he can't do the same here.

Which are what exactly?

YouTube video

Hahaha no she wasn't, not only does she tank several blows from Skywalker who arguably is the strongest Jedi physically in the order, but she saber locks him several times, and lands several blows against him. She retreats because the Temple Guard arrives. Not to mention she's pushing Skywalker back at several points in the fight. You're lowballing Barriss.